290 | Hahrie Han on Making Multicultural Democracy Work

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Sean Carroll interviews political scientist Hari Han about democracy as a lived, relational practice rather than just voting. Drawing on her book on Crossroads Church’s Undivided program in Cincinnati, Han argues that durable political participation grows from belonging, small-group practice, risk-taking, and organizational structures that convert people into engaged citizens who can act across difference.

Main Topics: Democracy as relational practice: Han defines democracy as more than elections: it requires cultivating citizens who can negotiate uncertainty, compromise, and act collectively in the public sphere. Uncertainty, commitment, and political legitimacy: The conversation centers on Valerie Bunce’s idea that democracy asks people to accept uncertainty over outcomes in exchange for certainty over process; without commitment, people may withdraw from the system. Participation beyond voting: Han argues that real democratic participation includes organizing, coalition-building, protest, and sustained civic engagement—not just election-day choice aggregation. Why DEI programs often fail: Han contrasts conventional DEI training with Undivided, arguing that many workplace-style programs are too scripted, too passive, and insufficiently relational to change behavior at scale. Undivided and Crossroads Church as a case study: The Cincinnati megachurch’s racial-solidarity program mobilized hundreds of volunteers and helped drive support for universal preschool, showing how faith-based community can generate civic action. Organizational form and scale: Han emphasizes that self-governing small groups nested within larger institutions can scale participation better than top-down one-to-many models because they build habits and agency. Evangelical politics, polarization, and Trump: The discussion reviews how evangelical identity became increasingly partisan and politically salient over recent decades, culminating in transactional support for Trump among many white evangelicals.

Key Arguments: Democracy fails if treated as a passive system where citizens only vote occasionally; it requires ongoing social and civic capacities that must be cultivated. People accept democratic uncertainty only when they trust the process and feel the potential losses are within a tolerable range; perceived existential threat can trigger withdrawal or anti-system behavior. Political preferences are not merely individual and static; they are formed in interaction, so political analysis should begin with relationships and social settings rather than isolated individuals. Many DEI efforts are ineffective because they teach scripts instead of building the kind of people and communities that can sustain behavior change. Undivided worked because it combined education, belonging, practice, and nested organizational support, enabling participants to take real risks and then continue engaging through on-ramps. Megachurches can be unusually powerful civic actors because they already provide dense networks, repeated contact, and a culture of collective life. The rise of Christian nationalism and the Trump-era alignment of evangelicals with Republicans are rooted in longer theological and political trends, but identity data are messy and self-identification is unstable. Pluralistic, multiracial democracy is historically difficult at scale, but the Undivided case offers a hopeful example that such cooperation can be built and sustained.

Data Points: Universal preschool ballot initiative: Issue 44 - Cincinnati ballot measure that motivated Han’s investigation Election context: 2016 - Trump won Ohio; the Cincinnati initiative passed in the same election year Church attendance: 35,000 people per week in person - Crossroads Church scale at the time of discussion Online audience: 500,000 people online - Crossroads Church digital reach Church size at research start: About 20,000 people per week - Crossroads size in 2016 when Han began researching it Megachurch threshold: About 2,000 people or more - Han’s description of the technical definition of a megachurch Church distribution: Largest 9% of churches contain 50% of churchgoing population - Used to show the concentration and influence of large churches Megachurch growth: About 34% growth between 2015 and 2020 - Magnitude cited for average megachurch expansion Participation intensity: 2 to 10 hours a week - Volunteering level of Undivided participants in the 12 weeks before the election Program length: 6 weeks - Undivided’s core training program Demographic composition of Crossroads: 80% white, 20% non-white - Approximate racial makeup of the church Black pastoral leadership: Highest-ranking black pastor at the church - Chuck Mingo’s role in launching Undivided Christian identification in U.S.: About 70% of Americans - Han’s broad estimate of American Christian identification Evangelicals by faith: About 30% to 35% of Americans - Estimate cited for the evangelical population overall “Other evangelicals” estimate: 30% to 35% of evangelicals by faith - Wes Markosky’s estimate of evangelicals who reject the political identity Christian nationalist estimate: Roughly comparable to 30% to 35% of evangelicals - Han’s comparison of subgroups within evangelicalism

Pivotal Quotes: "democracy is unique among all other forms of government, because it demands that people accept uncertainty over outcome in order to have certainty over process" — Hari Han: Her core definition of democracy and the tradeoff citizens must accept "belonging comes before belief" — Hari Han: Explaining a Crossroads/Undivided design principle that helps people join before fully agreeing "getting people to become the kind of people who do what needs to be done" — Hari Han: Her contrast between scripting behavior and building civic agency

Implications: The episode suggests democracy depends on institutions that build relationships, not just opinions. For civic groups, workplaces, and faith communities, the lesson is to create belonging, practice, and durable structures that help people act across difference.