Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Michael Shermer interviews Bart Ehrman about his new book on Revelation and Christian end-times thinking. Ehrman argues that Revelation was written for first-century Asian churches, not modern readers, and that its message is harsh, sectarian apocalypse rather than broad hope. The conversation also traces how prophetic failure, cognitive dissonance, and selective biblical interpretation shaped movements from the Millerites to contemporary evangelical politics.
Main Topics: What Revelation Really Is (Priority: 5/5): Ehrman explains that Revelation is an ancient apocalypse genre text addressed to seven churches in Asia Minor, using symbolic visions to claim divine insight into history and the end of evil. Eschatology, Failed Predictions, and Cognitive Dissonance (Priority: 5/5): The discussion surveys repeated end-times predictions that failed—Hal Lindsey, William Miller, Edgar Whisenant, Harold Camping—and how believers rationalize failures by resetting dates or reinterpreting prophecy. Ehrman’s Religious and Scholarly Journey (Priority: 4/5): Ehrman recounts moving from evangelical belief and biblical inerrancy to liberal Christianity and then nonbelief, driven by textual criticism and the problem of suffering. The Historical Jesus vs. Later Christian Theology (Priority: 5/5): Shermer and Ehrman contrast the historical Jesus’ likely apocalyptic message with later doctrines such as the Trinity, resurrection theology, and literalized second-coming expectations. Political and Social Consequences of End-Times Belief (Priority: 4/5): They discuss how belief in imminent apocalypse can reduce concern for climate change, future planning, and environmental stewardship, and how it shapes evangelical support for Israel. Bible, Culture, and Selective Interpretation (Priority: 4/5): The conversation examines how Christians read modern concerns into ancient texts, how the Bible’s tone is more complex than ‘wrath vs. love,’ and how prosperity gospel and capitalist Jesus readings diverge from Jesus’ teachings.
Key Arguments: Revelation was not written as a prediction of the 20th or 21st century; it was aimed at specific first-century Christian communities in Asia Minor. The book of Revelation is not a neutral book of hope; its salvation is reserved for a tiny in-group while most of humanity is condemned. Apocalyptic movements often survive failed predictions through cognitive dissonance: followers reinterpret errors, move dates, and intensify commitment. Jesus probably was an apocalyptic preacher who expected divine intervention in his lifetime, but later Christianity transformed his message into resurrection-centered theology. Modern evangelical literalism reflects Enlightenment-style demands for proof, even though faith claims are not the kind of thing that can be empirically demonstrated. End-times belief can have real-world effects, including weaker environmental concern, reduced long-term planning, and political support for Israeli policies tied to temple-rebuilding prophecy. Many popular Christian readings project contemporary politics onto ancient texts rather than interpreting those texts in their historical context.
Data Points: Book of Revelation audience: Seven churches of Asia Minor - Ehrman says John explicitly addresses Christians in Ephesus, Smyrna, Thyatira, and other churches on the west coast of Turkey. New Testament prophecy: 1,500 miles high - Ehrman describes the New Jerusalem in Revelation as a gigantic cubic city extending 1,500 miles upward. New Jerusalem footprint: About half the size of the United States - Shermer summarizes Ehrman’s point that the city’s dimensions are impossibly vast. Great Tribulation duration: 7 years - Shermer recounts the evangelical end-times timeline he once believed, including a seven-year tribulation. Hal Lindsey prediction window: Around or right before 1988 - Ehrman notes Lindsey’s bestselling 1970s prophecy book predicted Jesus’ return by about 1988. Whisenant title: 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988 - Used as an example of failed date-setting and later revision to 1989 by adjusting for the absence of year zero. Millerite prediction year: 1848 - Shermer and Ehrman discuss William Miller’s failed prediction and the resulting Great Disappointment. Conference volume on Brian: A published book of essays - Ehrman references a serious academic conference on Monty Python’s Life of Brian and historical Jesus scholarship. Jehovah's Witnesses offshoots: 30 religious groups - Ehrman cites Rodney Stark’s estimate of the number of movements that emerged from the Millerite failure. White evangelical vote: 81% - Shermer mentions the 2016 vote share for Trump among white evangelicals. Wondrium offer: Two years for the price of one - Podcast sponsor promotion at the start of the episode. Ehrman’s Wondrium catalog: 9 courses - Shermer notes Ehrman has recorded nine Great Courses for Wondrium.
Pivotal Quotes: "The book of Revelation is not predicting our future. And... it is not a book of hope." — Bart Ehrman: Ehrman’s central thesis about Revelation after reconsidering the text carefully. "You can actually trace the roots of it very clearly." — Bart Ehrman: On the historical and theological roots of evangelical Christian Zionism and support for Israel. "I think the reality is that Jesus really... thought that he was an apocalypticist, too." — Bart Ehrman: Ehrman’s claim that the historical Jesus shared end-times expectations similar to Revelation’s worldview.
Implications: Listeners are urged to treat biblical prophecy historically, not as a modern roadmap. The episode shows how apocalyptic belief can distort politics, morality, and public policy, while rewarding careful textual criticism over slogan-level religious certainty.