Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Michael Shermer interviews economist Tyler Cowen about his book "Stubborn Attachments," focusing on why economic growth, markets, and good institutions are morally important. They cover marginal reasoning, inequality, education, immigration, welfare, social media regulation, climate/nuclear power, Trump’s trade policy, storytelling in politics, and what kind of economic system might work on Mars.
Main Topics: Growth as a moral priority: Cowen argues that long-run economic growth is one of the strongest drivers of human flourishing because it raises living standards, expands opportunity, improves health, and enables greater charity. Marginal reasoning and the origin of "Marginal Revolution": He explains marginal utility and why the blog name refers both to a landmark in economics and to their modest attempt to improve the world through ideas. Capitalism, ethics, and production: Cowen rejects a sharp split between economics and morality, claiming production, innovation, and wealth creation are deeply moral activities because they generate value and human welfare. Policy debates: inequality, UBI, education, and immigration: The conversation examines inequality, social spending, universal basic income, education reform, and immigration, with Cowen favoring work incentives, more education, and higher immigration. Trade, tariffs, and China: Cowen criticizes Trump’s trade rhetoric and tariffs as economically misguided while acknowledging real geopolitical and IP concerns with China. Technology, monopolies, and regulation: They discuss social media platforms, censorship, competition, and the limits of government regulation relative to private-sector solutions. Narratives, Jordan Peterson, and Mars governance: The interview closes with a discussion of storytelling in politics and a speculative look at what institutions should be carried to Mars, including Cowen’s preference for free markets and strong social norms.
Key Arguments: Ideas matter more than vested interests; policies and institutions are shaped by what people believe, so economists and public intellectuals can have real impact. Marginal analysis explains prices and choices: value depends on what people already have and what the next unit is worth to them. Economic growth is not just efficient but morally important because it raises welfare, expands freedom, and creates resources for charity and innovation. Capable people and high-growth societies produce technologies and institutions that benefit the entire world, including poorer countries. Inequality is concerning but not proof that growth is bad; many people can still be better off even when gains are unevenly distributed. Universal basic income is less attractive than work-based support like the Earned Income Tax Credit because work provides purpose, status, and social connection. Education policy should focus on better schools, teacher quality, parental involvement, and skills that increase productivity; the U.S. underperforms relative to what is possible. Immigration should be expanded because the U.S. can absorb more people, especially innovators, and benefit economically and culturally. Tariffs generally hurt consumers and are not a sound economic strategy, though China poses genuine geopolitical and IP challenges. Nuclear power and other low-carbon technologies should be used more because they can reduce pollution and support growth. Social media companies should mostly be left to competition and private choice rather than heavy-handed regulation, though they do have real discretionary power. Politics is won with narratives; Democrats should offer a credible, centrist, pro-governance story rather than ideological extremism. Mormon-like social norms would be useful for a Mars colony because tight cooperation, family formation, and moral discipline may be essential in an extreme environment.
Data Points: Podcast frequency: about once a week - Shermer describes the Science Salon podcast publication schedule. Annual fundraising drive: 2018 - Shermer thanks donors to the Skeptic Society/Skeptic Magazine annual drive. George Mason tenure: almost 30 years - Cowen says he has been teaching at George Mason University almost 30 years. Age when he began serious reading: 14 - Cowen says he decided at 14 to try to read as much as possible. Year of the marginal revolution in economics: 1871 - Cowen explains the historical origin of the term "marginal revolution." Typical age after which new economic ideas rarely shift minds: 25 or 30 - Keynes quote cited in the introduction about how beliefs settle early in life. Global growth rate: 3.5% to 4% - Cowen says world economic growth has never been higher than roughly this range. U.S. income distribution growth since 1979: bottom fifth +49%, second fifth +37%, middle fifth +36%, fourth fifth +45%, top 1% +202% - Shermer cites a graph showing uneven income gains in the U.S. If U.S. growth had been lower: 1 percentage point lower from 1890 to 1980 would have made the U.S. like Mexico in 1980 - Cowen uses compound growth to show the importance of small differences over time. U.S. social spending: about 22% of GDP - Discussed as a rough share devoted to social spending. Canada social spending: slightly lower than the U.S. - Cowen compares Western welfare states. High school vs college wage divergence: high school wages roughly flat since the 1970s; college wages rose sharply - Shermer cites labor-market inequality by education level. WHO air pollution deaths: 7 million a year - Cowen cites global deaths from air pollution as an argument for cleaner energy, including nuclear. Nuclear disasters in the U.S.: no deaths due to nuclear power in the United States - Cowen contrasts nuclear risk with air-pollution mortality. CEO pay multiple: about 350x average worker pay, down to 19x at Whole Foods - Shermer discusses CEO pay inequality and John Mackey’s "conscious capitalism." Facebook usage by youth: young people are using Facebook less and less - Cowen argues that social media users can opt out if they dislike a platform.
Pivotal Quotes: "The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood." — John Maynard Keynes (quoted by Michael Shermer): Opening framing for why economic ideas matter to politics and society. "Growth is good." — Tyler Cowen: Cowen’s central thesis about why long-run prosperity should be prioritized morally and politically. "People act on something, they act on their beliefs." — Michael Shermer: Shermer’s response to the Keynes quote, emphasizing the behavioral power of ideas.
Implications: Listeners should take economic ideas seriously as moral and political forces. The episode argues for pro-growth, pro-work, pro-education, and pro-immigration policies, with skepticism toward tariffs, UBI, and overregulation, while stressing that institutions and narratives shape the future.