73. England v Italy

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: A playful history-and-football podcast uses England’s Euro 2020 final against Italy to trace centuries of Anglo-Italian relations. The hosts argue that England has long looked to Italy/Rome as cultural, religious, financial, and military center—sometimes admiring, sometimes resentful—while modern stereotypes of Italian style, weakness, and cunning evolved into admiration for Garibaldi, Renaissance culture, and postwar sophistication.

Main Topics: Rome as the foundational reference point: The hosts argue that England’s relationship with Italy begins with Rome: Roman Britain, Anglo-Saxon identity, and medieval kings defining themselves in relation to Rome’s imperial center. Papacy, Christianity, and medieval tension: They discuss Gregory the Great, missionary conversion, papal authority over English kings, and the Church-state conflicts that shaped English anti-Roman feeling before the Reformation. Italian cultural and economic influence in medieval and early modern England: Chaucer, banking families, Lombards, and Italian trade are used to show England’s dependence on Italian finance and artistic prestige. Reformation, Protestant anti-Catholicism, and the ‘black legend’: The discussion shifts to Henry VIII, Milton, Galileo, and the lasting Protestant framing of Rome/Italy as repressive, which later feeds anti-Catholic and secular narratives. Grand Tour, macaroni, and Italianate style: 18th-century elite travel to Italy produces admiration and ridicule: ruins, fashion, and 'macaroni' culture become symbols of effeminacy and cosmopolitan display. Risorgimento, Garibaldi, and Britain’s pro-Italian sentiment: Garibaldi is presented as a liberal hero celebrated in Britain, with strong public support, Navy assistance, and lasting cultural traces including football and biscuit names. 20th-century war, prejudice, and postwar rehabilitation: Italy is mocked and distrusted in both world wars, but the hosts stress the real suffering of Italians in Britain and Italy’s later postwar economic and cultural rise.

Key Arguments: Italy mattered to England long before the modern nation-state because Rome shaped English historical consciousness, kingship, and identity. English history is repeatedly defined in relation to Rome: first as a colony, then as a church client, then as a rival, and finally as a cultural admirer. The papacy exerted real power over English rulers, making England feel peripheral and often politically subordinate to Italy/Rome. Italian culture was the benchmark for elite English taste in literature, art, finance, fashion, and travel from the Middle Ages onward. The Reformation transformed Rome from admired center to Protestant enemy, but the relationship remained deeply entangled rather than simply hostile. In the 19th century Britain strongly supported Italian unification, especially Garibaldi, showing that admiration could coexist with stereotyping. World War-era anti-Italian prejudice was intense and often cruel, but postwar Italy regained prestige through economics, design, film, and lifestyle. The podcast uses football as a lens to show that national identity is historically layered and often framed through old civilizational stereotypes.

Data Points: Roman presence in Britain: about four centuries - The Romans permanently occupied Britain from 43 AD until withdrawal. Dates of Caesar’s expeditions to Britain: 55 BC and 54 BC - Julius Caesar’s campaigns are cited as the first written description of what became England. Early 2nd century BC: by the early 2nd century BC - The hosts say Romans had a coherent idea of Italy by this period. Chaucer’s Italy trip purpose: trade deals over wool - Chaucer’s travel to Italy is tied to economic diplomacy as well as culture. Edward I’s banking collapse: 13th-14th century debt crisis - Edward I borrowed heavily from Lucchese bankers and then seized their English property when they could not pay. Approximate crowd for Garibaldi in London: half a million people - Garibaldi’s 1864 London visit drew enormous crowds. Garibaldi support in Britain: tens of thousands of pounds - Public donations funded Garibaldi’s expedition and cause. Risorgimento landing force: the Thousand - Garibaldi’s famous expedition to Sicily is identified as the Expedition of the Thousand. World War II internment vessel deaths: about 800 killed - The Arandora Star, carrying mostly Italians, was torpedoed en route to Canada. Arandora Star passengers: 1,200 people - Mostly Italians, plus Germans and some refugees, were aboard the ship. Italian economy: economic miracle in the 1950s - Postwar Italy’s rapid growth is contrasted with centuries of British mockery.

Pivotal Quotes: "Rome is the centre of the world, Rome is the centre of the centre." — Tom Holland: Used to explain why England historically oriented itself toward Rome as imperial and spiritual authority. "non-angli, said angeli, not angles, but angels." — Dominic/Discussion of Gregory the Great: Cited as the famous pun by Pope Gregory I when encountering Anglo-Saxon boys in Rome. "the Italians are mere organ grinders. They will be no use whatsoever." — Jackie Fisher: World War I-era dismissive British view of Italy as an unreliable ally.

Implications: The episode reframes Italy as central to English identity, not peripheral: admirer, rival, and mirror. For listeners, it shows how football rests on centuries of political, religious, and cultural history still shaping stereotypes and allegiances.