Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Sam Harris convenes Anne Applebaum and Juliette Kayyem to assess a rapidly escalating Trump White House scandal driven by the Comey firing, contacts with Russians, and the president’s apparent leaking of classified information. The discussion centers on Trump’s admiration for authoritarianism, the chaos and dishonesty surrounding his administration, and whether impeachment is becoming politically possible.
Main Topics: Trump’s Russia relationship and authoritarian affinity (Priority: 5/5): Applebaum argues the core problem is Trump’s unexplained attraction to Russian kleptocracy, oligarchy, and Putin’s style of power, which shapes his behavior more than any coherent ideology. Comey firing and the timing of the Russian meeting (Priority: 5/5): The guests discuss how firing Comey and then meeting Lavrov the next day created the appearance of obstruction, carelessness, and deep dysfunction in the White House. Leak of classified information and security risk (Priority: 5/5): Applebaum emphasizes that Trump’s tendency to brag and share sensitive information makes him a danger to intelligence relationships and U.S. allies. White House dishonesty and staff complicity (Priority: 4/5): Both the host and Applebaum note the pattern of surrogates covering for Trump, then being contradicted by Trump himself, creating a culture of denial similar to authoritarian regimes. Impeachment as a political, not purely legal, process (Priority: 4/5): They argue impeachment depends on Republican willingness to see Trump as a political liability, and that plenty of grounds may already exist beyond the Russia inquiry. The limits of the Russia-collusion frame (Priority: 4/5): Applebaum warns that focusing too narrowly on a criminal Russia probe could miss broader misconduct, including emoluments, corruption, and Trump’s authoritarian instincts. Public fatigue and the normalization of scandal (Priority: 3/5): The conversation highlights how the nonstop pace of scandals and misinformation can overwhelm citizens, potentially driving apathy and disengagement.
Key Arguments: Trump’s relationship with Russia is less about hidden conspiracy than visible admiration for authoritarian power, kleptocracy, and Putin’s model of rule. Inviting Lavrov to the Oval Office was an unusual and symbolically significant concession, made worse by allowing a Russian photographer into the meeting. Trump’s careless sharing of sensitive information suggests he may be a security risk to U.S. intelligence partnerships and allied trust. The firing of Comey appears to have been impulsive and motivated by Trump’s desire to make an investigation disappear, not by sound governance. The White House’s attempt to deny or reframe events is repeatedly undermined by Trump’s own public statements, deepening the credibility crisis. Impeachment is ultimately a political decision; if Republicans view Trump as a liability, they can remove him even without a smoking-gun crime. Focusing only on collusion may obscure broader constitutional and ethical issues, including emoluments and abuse of office. Trump’s supporters function as a tribal, identity-based movement, making conventional rational persuasion ineffective.
Data Points: Episode date: May 18th - Host notes the recording date while framing the discussion as tied to that week’s rapidly changing news. Number of guests: 2 - Anne Applebaum and Juliette Kayyem are the two expert guests featured in the episode. White House scandal window: 10 days - Kayyem describes the events as unfolding over only about ten days, beginning with the Sally Yates hearing. News pacing: 1 week - Harris repeatedly emphasizes that scandal developments accelerated dramatically over the course of the week. U.S. intelligence relationships: Multiple allies and partners - Applebaum stresses that U.S. intelligence depends on trust with allied governments and shared sources/methods, all threatened by Trump’s behavior.
Pivotal Quotes: "What kind of a person is this? You know, this is not, there's no American tradition of admiring autocracy or trying to bring elements of it to the United States." — Anne Applebaum: Applebaum frames Trump’s admiration for Putin-style governance as the central scandal, not just possible criminal collusion. "The worst aspect of it is his admiration for them. The fact that he, this is the society he likes the most." — Anne Applebaum: On why the Russia issue is deeper than a single leak or meeting, pointing to Trump’s preferences and instincts. "This is not a test. This is the real thing." — Juliette Kayyem: Kayyem describes the seriousness of the 10-day political crisis and the danger of treating it as routine partisan chaos.
Implications: The episode argues that Trump’s danger lies not just in legality but in temperament, ideology, and authoritarian sympathies. If Republicans treat him as a liability, impeachment becomes possible; otherwise, normalization and public fatigue may let the crisis deepen.
About Making Sense with Sam Harris
Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and five-time New York Times best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores important and controversial questions about the mind, society, current events, moral philosophy, religion, and rationality—with an overarching focus on how a growing understanding of ourselves and the world is changing our sense of how we should live. Sam is also the creator of the Waking Up app. Combining Sam’s decades of mindfulness practice, profound wisdom from varied philosophical...