82: ‘We're Allowed to Make Stuff Up; It's a Podcast’ With Dan Frommer

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: The episode centers on Apple platform changes, podcast infrastructure, and the evolving economics of digital media. John Gruber and Dan Frommer compare feed and audio hosting tools, discuss YouTube’s early bandwidth costs, analyze the coming WWDC software redesigns, and debate the future of tablet/laptop multitasking, touch Macs, and iOS-style app development. The conversation also covers Frommer’s new role at Quartz and sponsor-driven hardware/services like Karma and Harry’s.

Main Topics: Podcast infrastructure, RSS redirects, and audio hosting (Priority: 5/5): They compare FeedBurner, FeedPress, and SoundCloud as tools for podcast delivery and measurement, focusing on subscriber analytics, feed control, and the difficulty of counting real listens across RSS and app ecosystems. The economics of media delivery and bandwidth (Priority: 5/5): A long discussion examines how expensive audio/video hosting can be, with a retrospective on YouTube’s early bandwidth bill and a comparison between SoundCloud pricing and hypothetical S3 hosting costs. WWDC expectations and Mac/iOS interface redesign (Priority: 5/5): They speculate about the upcoming OS X 10.10 redesign, how closely it may resemble iOS 7, whether Macs can absorb flatter UI treatments, and what changes Apple might make to unify design language across platforms. Tablet multitasking and the future of computing form factors (Priority: 5/5): They debate whether iPads should support side-by-side apps, whether that would meaningfully help users, and how Microsoft’s Surface strategy compares with Apple’s current separation of tablet and laptop experiences. Learning to code on tablets and the need for accessible programming tools (Priority: 4/5): Frommer argues that there is no compelling iPad-native programming environment and that a HyperCard-like approach could lower friction for more people to build software on mobile devices. Quartz, newsroom engineering, and the product/journalism relationship (Priority: 4/5): Frommer explains his new job as tech editor at Quartz, its mobile-first/global editorial model, and why having engineers embedded in newsrooms improves storytelling and product development. Sponsor discussion and live event announcements (Priority: 3/5): The episode includes sponsor reads for Karma, lynda.com, and Harry’s, plus a promo for a live Talk Show event in San Francisco during WWDC.

Key Arguments: RSS feed redirects and podcast analytics remain messy; no single service perfectly measures real subscribers or real plays because users consume the same feed across multiple apps and devices. SoundCloud is attractive for podcasts because it attempts to measure plays, but its pricing only looks free when compared to the much higher cost of self-hosting audio on S3. YouTube’s early infrastructure costs were a fascinating business story because the company was scaling video delivery in an era when bandwidth was still extremely expensive and poorly understood. Apple’s next Mac OS redesign is likely to be the most interesting WWDC story because the Mac has not undergone a dramatic visual overhaul since the iOS 7 transition changed the rest of Apple’s design language. A direct import of iOS-style flatness into macOS would be difficult because overlapping windows, menus, and small controls are fundamentally less touch-friendly and more complex than iOS interfaces. If Apple adds iPad multitasking, it will increase complexity, so the feature must be elegant enough that everyday users can discover and use it without breaking the simplicity of iOS. Microsoft’s Surface is an interesting experiment, but the detachable-keyboard tablet still feels less satisfying than a real laptop for serious work, especially writing and spreadsheet work. The future of digital journalism depends on treating engineers as part of the newsroom, not as an external support team, because modern publishing systems are computational products. There is a strong unmet need for a simple, visually approachable programming environment on iPad; HyperCard is the model because it reduced friction and made software creation feel accessible. Quartz’s model—mobile-first design, custom ads, engineers in the newsroom, and global coverage—is presented as an example of how a modern news organization should be built.

Data Points: SoundCloud unlimited downloads price: $30/month - Frommer corrects an earlier claim and explains the cost of his current SoundCloud plan for the show. SoundCloud free tier: Available, but limited - He notes SoundCloud is free only up to a point and not for unlimited downloads. Potential S3 hosting cost: $2,000–$3,000/month - Estimated cost of hosting podcast audio on Amazon S3 versus SoundCloud. Podcast file size: ~50–100 MB per episode - Typical size discussed for a one-hour-plus podcast episode. YouTube bandwidth guess in 2006: $1 million/month - Gruber recalls his Forbes estimate of YouTube’s early bandwidth bill. YouTube bill estimate error: 10x high - He says he was later told the estimate was off by roughly an order of magnitude. Karma device price: $99 - Retail price for the Wi-Fi hotspot device before discount. Karma promo discount: 15% off - Offer through yourkarma.com/thetalkshow. Karma data price: $9.99 per gig - Karma’s cellular data pricing model. Karma signup bonus: 100 MB free - New users receive free data upon signup. Karma referral bonus: 100 MB per referred user - Both parties receive extra data when someone joins via your hotspot. WWDC live show tickets: ~350 tickets - Approximate capacity for the Talk Show Live event at Mezzanine. Harry’s starter kit price: $15 - Kit includes a handle, three sets of blades, and shave cream. Harry’s first purchase discount: $5 off - Using promo code TalkShow. Quartz founding year: 2012 - Frommer describes Quartz as a business news site launched in 2012. Quartz URL: qz.com - Frommer notes Quartz’s short mobile-friendly domain.

Pivotal Quotes: "It's crazy, though, because there's four different redirects." — John Gruber: Describing the complexity of podcast feed forwarding and RSS redirects. "I'm more excited about what's going on in all this stuff that we talk about this year than I've been in a long time." — John Gruber: Closing reflection on Apple, Microsoft, Google, and broader platform shifts. "So this is the future of the laptop. It's this tablet." — John Gruber: Summarizing Microsoft’s Surface-style argument about detachable-keyboard tablets.

Implications: Listeners get a snapshot of a major platform transition era: Apple’s UI overhaul, evolving tablet/laptop boundaries, and the need for better tools for publishing and coding. The episode suggests the next wave of innovation will come from smarter interfaces, better analytics, and more integrated hardware/software workflows.