Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Michael Shermer interviews biological anthropologist Melvin Konner about his book Believers, focusing on religion as a human adaptation, hunter-gatherer life, violence, and secular alternatives. Konner argues faith is deeply rooted in human nature but is not reducible to explanation of causality; it also serves community, meaning, and moral coordination. He defends a naturalistic, evidence-based view of human behavior while urging respect for religious and atheist freedom.
Main Topics: Konner’s intellectual and faith journey: Konner traces his move from an Orthodox Jewish upbringing in Brooklyn to atheism and scientific humanism, shaped by civil rights activism, philosophy, and evolutionary biology. Human nature, biology, and anthropology: The discussion revisits Konner’s long-standing project: explaining emotions, morality, and behavior through biology, evolution, and culture rather than supernatural causes. Religion in hunter-gatherer societies: Konner describes the Bushmen’s trance dances, spirit beliefs, and healing practices, emphasizing that religion coexists with practical scientific reasoning about hunting and the environment. Violence in prehistory and civilization: Konner agrees violence is part of human nature but argues rates of violence likely declined over time; he distinguishes homicide from organized violence and notes civilization intensified hierarchy and inequality. What religion does beyond explanation: He critiques atheist reductions of religion to false causality, arguing religion also provides community, commitment signaling, moral emotion, ritual, and psychological benefit. Secular alternatives and post-religious community: The conversation considers humanist congregations, ethical culture, and cultural Judaism as possible replacements for some social functions of religion. Politics, egalitarianism, and the social welfare state: Konner connects hunter-gatherer egalitarianism to modern liberal-democratic social policy, endorsing stronger floors for the least advantaged without eliminating achievement or inequality entirely.
Key Arguments: Konner’s atheism emerged gradually from religious upbringing, political activism, philosophy, and evolutionary thinking rather than from a single rejection of faith. Postwar intellectual life strongly resisted biological explanations of behavior because of fascism, eugenics, and Holocaust-era concerns, but later sociobiology made biological approaches harder to dismiss. Hunter-gatherer societies are not psychologically primitive; they show sophisticated inductive reasoning in tracking, poison preparation, and environmental inference. Religion cannot be understood only as a causal explanation system because many hunter-gatherers already have practical causal knowledge; religion serves ritual, healing, cohesion, and meaning. The existence of faith-related brain activity does not prove a single “God spot”; religious cognition likely involves distributed brain circuits or a “God map.” Violence is universal in human nature, but organized violence and inequality tend to rise with settled agriculture and complex hierarchy. Atheists should not assume religion only harms; a fair assessment would compare harms and benefits empirically. Humanist or secular communities may need to reproduce religion’s positive functions—community, shared ritual, inspiration, and mutual support—if religion declines. The best modern political systems may resemble an updated, non-primitive version of hunter-gatherer egalitarianism, with a strong social floor and reduced inequality.
Data Points: Years living with hunter-gatherers: 2 years - Konner lived with a hunter-gatherer group in Africa, which shaped his view of religion and human nature. Age when Konner attended the I Have a Dream speech: Two days before his 17th birthday - He links this civil-rights experience to his moral and political development. Age range of Hebrew school attendance: Age 8 to 15/16 - Konner describes intensive Jewish religious education in childhood. Bushmen band size: About 20 to 40 people - He characterizes classical hunter-gatherer bands as small, semi-nomadic groups. Musical/ritual trance duration: Hours - Bushmen men dance monotonously for hours to enter trance during healing rituals. Archaeological and ethnographic wealth gap in hunter-gatherers: About 2-fold - Konner contrasts small-scale inequality with modern U.S.-style inequality. Wealth disparity in the United States: About 1000-fold - Used to emphasize how much more unequal modern society is than hunter-gatherer life. National Academy of Sciences religiosity: Very small percentage religious - Konner notes a low proportion of religious belief among elite scientists. Modern hunter-gatherer food split: Roughly 50-50 - He says ancestral diets likely varied broadly, with a broad bell curve around plant and flesh intake.
Pivotal Quotes: "It’s easier to specify what our ancestors didn’t eat than what they did eat." — Mel Conner: On ancestral diet and why simplistic paleo-diet claims are misleading. "What I cared about was that Mr. Volvo couldn’t pull the floor out from under the poorest people in the society." — Mel Conner: On preferring egalitarian social arrangements over extreme wealth concentration. "If not religion, what?" — Michael Shermer: The closing question about what should replace religion if religiosity continues to decline.
Implications: Listeners should see religion as multifaceted: part biology, part culture, part social technology. If secularism grows, successful alternatives must recreate community, ritual, and meaning without coercion or superstition.