Amazon Was Supposed to Kill the Bookstore. James Daunt Had Other Plans | Better in Person

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Stephen Dubner interviews James Daunt about his unlikely path from banker to independent bookseller to leader of Waterstones and Barnes & Noble. Daunt argues that great bookstores win through quality, local autonomy, long-term thinking, and curation—not heavy marketing or centralized control—and that physical bookstores still matter as community spaces and cultural institutions.

Main Topics: Daunt’s path from banking to bookselling (Priority: 5/5): Daunt explains how a history graduate who enjoyed banking but found it dull to others quit JPMorgan, opened Daunt Books in London, and slowly built a successful independent bookstore through persistence and faith in books. Long-term quality over short-term gain (Priority: 5/5): A central theme is Daunt’s belief that businesses fail when they chase quarterly or immediate results instead of sustained quality, patient decision-making, and operational discipline. Turning around Waterstones and Barnes & Noble (Priority: 5/5): Daunt describes how he was brought in to fix failing chains by decentralizing decision-making, empowering store teams, and reversing uniform, top-down management that made stores boring and expensive. The value of physical bookstores in the Amazon era (Priority: 5/5): He argues that Amazon and digital retail did not eliminate bookstores because the in-person experience, discovery, pleasure of browsing, and emotional attachment to a physical book remain powerful. Community role of bookstores (Priority: 4/5): Daunt frames bookstores as “vocational” community spaces that serve children, teens, older adults, and local social life, creating civil, safe, and nurturing environments beyond simple transactions. Curation, BookTok, and discovering new books (Priority: 4/5): He praises BookTok and other discovery channels when left to store teams, while emphasizing that bookstores succeed by curated selection and by helping surface new authors rather than just selling established names. Physical media and reading habits (Priority: 3/5): The discussion extends to books as collectible, decorative objects and to the idea that physical reading aids retention, while digital formats dominate more disposable or genre-driven consumption.

Key Arguments: Quality and patience matter more than short-term gains; businesses should avoid sacrificing long-term health for immediate results. Independent bookstores and chains thrive when local stores have autonomy to reflect their communities rather than follow rigid centralized directives. The supposed death of bookstores and print books was exaggerated; good bookstores still attract customers because the in-store experience has intrinsic value. Bookstores function as civic third places, helping shape community life, literacy, and social development. Heavy marketing is not necessary for a strong bookstore if the product and experience are good; Daunt claims Barnes & Noble and Waterstones operate with no marketing budget. Physical books remain important because they are pleasurable to buy, own, display, and read, and they support memory and deeper engagement. Book discovery should not be monopolized by algorithms or celebrity book clubs; skilled booksellers and editors can still create excitement and find new voices.

Data Points: Daunt Books sales growth duration: Sales have gone up every month since opening - Daunt notes the original independent shop grew steadily over time. Time to success for Daunt Books: About 5 years - It took roughly five years for the first bookstore to become successful. Waterstones marketing budget: Zero - Daunt says he set the marketing budget to zero on day one and it has remained zero. Initial Waterstones marketing budget: About 30 million - He references the prior budget before cutting it to zero. Barnes & Noble store count: More than 700 - The chain now has 700+ stores across the U.S. Barnes & Noble expansion pace: Dozens of new stores this year - The company is opening multiple new locations. Waterstones ownership shift year: 2018 - Alexander Mamut sold Waterstones to Elliott Management, enabling the Barnes & Noble acquisition. Original Waterstones store count context: 300 bookstores - Daunt refers to the chain as having around 300 stores when he took over. Operational change at Waterstones: Most central office staff were removed - He says he fired most of the headquarters layer to decentralize store decisions. Pine tables removed: 650 stores - A specific failed merchandising change was reversed across the chain.

Pivotal Quotes: "quality will out and that one should never sacrifice the medium and long term for the short term" — James Daunt: Daunt states his core business philosophy on running bookstores and chains. "The bookstore can or should be a sort of a third place" — Stephen Dubner: Dubner introduces the idea of bookstores as community spaces, which Daunt expands on. "people are idiots" — James Daunt: Daunt says most mistakes are innocent and argues for giving employees freedom with common-sense guardrails.

Implications: The episode suggests bookstores can survive by embracing local autonomy, curation, and community value. For retailers, it’s a case study in patient management; for readers, a defense of physical books and in-person discovery in a digital world.