Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Elif Shafak and Peter Frankopan discuss Shafak’s novel There Are Rivers in the Sky, focusing on water, memory, oral storytelling, multilingual creativity, and the politics of history. Shafak argues for multiplicity over monolithic identity, for recovering silenced histories through oral culture, and for writing from intuition and heart rather than market pressure or labels.
Main Topics: Water as memory, metaphor, and structure (Priority: 5/5): Shafak explains that the novel began with a raindrop and evolved into a meditation on water as a carrier of memory, trauma, ecological warning, and connectivity across time and geography. Oral storytelling and forgotten histories (Priority: 5/5): She emphasizes oral tradition, especially grandmothers’ memories, as a way to recover what written history erases—particularly women’s, minority, and non-elite experiences. Multiplicity, identity, and publishing constraints (Priority: 5/5): Shafak argues that writers from outside the West are often boxed into fixed identity categories and that literature should allow complexity, hybridity, and freedom across genres and subjects. Language, translation, and creative freedom (Priority: 4/5): She reflects on writing in English and Turkish, describing English as a language of freedom and Turkish as emotionally intimate, while defending the mixing of old and new words. Memory, trauma, and buried rivers in cities (Priority: 4/5): The discussion links buried urban rivers to climate change and collective amnesia, using London and other cities as examples of how modern civilization obscures natural and historical layers. Intuition, curiosity, and the writing process (Priority: 4/5): Shafak describes writing as non-linear and emotionally guided, with self-doubt, experimentation, and childlike curiosity playing central roles in creative work. AI, information overload, and the need for wisdom (Priority: 4/5): She distinguishes information from knowledge and wisdom, warning that digital abundance can create apathy unless paired with empathy, cultural depth, and reflective spaces.
Key Arguments: The raindrop motif led Shafak to the Epic of Gilgamesh and then to the Yazidi community, showing how personal imagination can open onto ancient history. Oral culture preserves what written culture censors or forgets, especially the experiences of women, minorities, and the elderly. History is often written as 'his story'; literature can recover silenced perspectives from across class, gender, and ethnicity. Writers should not be reduced to one identity label or expected to write only about their presumed community or nation. English gave Shafak distance and freedom from censorship, while Turkish remains emotionally central for longing, melancholy, and childhood. Language should be seen as a flowing, interconnected river rather than a fixed hierarchy of pure forms or approved vocabularies. Buried rivers are both a literal climate issue and a metaphor for buried truths that societies need to bring into daylight. Good writing depends on intuition and emotional truth as much as intellect; a character must be felt in the heart. The current information economy produces overload without wisdom; education and culture should prioritize knowledge and emotional intelligence. Literature can change lives by opening other worlds and possibilities, and the novel remains necessary despite predictions of its death.
Data Points: Languages in which Elif Shafak’s work has been translated: 58 - Introduced in the event opening as evidence of her global reach Approximate length of the released recording: Final 45 minutes - Host explains only the final segment of the live event is available Age when Shafak was raised by her maternal grandmother: Until about 10 years old - Used to explain the influence of her grandmother on her worldview Years before the present in the novel’s nonmodern historical section: Ancient Mesopotamia / Assyrian Empire references - Shafak links the Yazidi story to very old regional history Modern reference year in the novel: 2014 - Ziliha’s storyline is set near the contemporary period Number of books Shafak says were sent to a prosecutor’s office: 2 - She cites legal pressure and censorship in Turkey Novel mentioned as basis for prosecution: 10 Minutes 38 Seconds - Referenced as the book involving a sex worker and obscenity accusations Number of novels Shafak says she wrote in Turkish before Pinhan: 4 - She notes Pinhan was her first novel and that she wrote four novels in Turkish before it
Pivotal Quotes: "Water remembers, but it's humans who forget." — Audience member citing Shafak’s book: Asked during the Q&A about water, trauma, and erased histories "I make a distinction between information, knowledge, and wisdom." — Elif Shafak: Her response to questions about AI, education, and the digital age "The key thing is not to make our reading list solely Eurocentric." — Elif Shafak: Explaining why she draws on multiple storytelling traditions beyond Western Europe
Implications: The conversation argues for literature as a tool of recovery, resistance, and empathy: to challenge identity boxes, preserve endangered memory, and slow down information overload. For writers and publishers, it’s a case for pluralism, artistic risk, and non-Western storytelling traditions.