Anne Applebaum on the Twilight of Democracy

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Anne Applebaum and Russ Roberts discuss how the anti-communist conservative coalition of the 1980s fractured into a nationalist, anti-liberal right, driven by disappointment, identity politics, and new media. They examine authoritarian predispositions, the weakening of civic institutions, the political role of the internet, and tensions between local, national, and international governance, while disagreeing about the severity of threats from the left versus the right.

Main Topics: Collapse of the old anti-communist conservative coalition (Priority: 5/5): Applebaum traces how Reagan-Thatcher era conservatism unified disparate groups around anti-communism, but after communism fell those groups diverged over religion, human rights, markets, and state power. Personal and political fragmentation (Priority: 5/5): The New Year’s Eve party in 1999 becomes a symbol of how former allies in Poland, Britain, and the U.S. drifted apart, with some becoming nationalists, anti-Semites, or illiberal insiders. Authoritarian predisposition and political mobilization (Priority: 5/5): Applebaum discusses Karen Stenner’s work on people who dislike chaos, rapid change, and cacophony, arguing that modern politics and media now target and amplify those tendencies. Media, technology, and political transformation (Priority: 5/5): The conversation links the printing press, radio, and the internet to major political realignments, noting that communication revolutions democratize information but can also empower extremists and authoritarians. Nationalism, sovereignty, and supranational institutions (Priority: 4/5): Roberts and Applebaum debate the legitimacy and usefulness of the EU and other international institutions, balancing concerns about distance from voters against the need for higher-level coordination on trade, climate, and geopolitics. Fear, security, and the appeal of strong leaders (Priority: 4/5): Both speakers agree that people often trade freedom for safety during crises, such as pandemics or social disorder, and that politicians exploit this impulse by promising order and protection. Pessimism, optimism, and institutional repair (Priority: 4/5): The discussion ends on whether democracies can adapt to social media, money in politics, and polarization; Applebaum argues for cautious optimism and institutional reform despite current dangers.

Key Arguments: The post-1989 conservative movement was a coalition held together mainly by anti-communism, not by a single philosophy, so it naturally splintered once the Soviet threat disappeared. Disappointment—over secularization, immigration, demographic change, and personal political failure—helps explain why some former conservatives moved toward nationalism and illiberalism. Modern media ecosystems make it easier for political entrepreneurs to activate authoritarian preferences by amplifying images of disorder, conflict, and state crackdowns. Communication revolutions often produce democratic gains alongside dangerous backlash; the printing press, radio, and internet each widened access while enabling propaganda and polarization. The disappearance of churches, unions, and civic organizations weakened the real-world communities that once anchored stable political identities. Applebaum argues that the right’s current authoritarian turn is more consequential than the left’s excesses, though she acknowledges dangers from left-wing cancel culture and academia. Roberts argues that as decision-making moves farther from citizens, accountability falls and people become vulnerable to unresponsive elites, especially in supranational institutions. Both agree that some policy problems require higher-level coordination, but they differ on how much authority should reside in local, national, or international bodies. People often seek politics as a substitute for religion and community, making identity-based conflict more intense and less empirically grounded. The central challenge is to preserve freedom and pluralism while maintaining enough order, coordination, and legitimacy for democratic institutions to function.

Data Points: Date of episode: August 21, 2020 - Introductory metadata for the EconTalk episode New Year’s Eve party year: 1999 - Applebaum uses this party as a metaphor for the breakup of her social/political circle Time span of drift apart: Nearly two decades later - Applebaum describes how attendees would later avoid one another Number of countries in the EU: 27 - Applebaum cites the current size of the European Union when discussing sovereignty and coordination Hundred Years' War-like religious conflict: About 100 years - Used to describe the long political effects of the printing press and Protestantism Pandemic restriction example: People needed permission to go to the grocery store - Applebaum refers to strict early-pandemic rules in France and Italy U.S. unemployment in 1933: 25% - Russ Roberts cites James Buchanan’s historical comparison to frame optimism and pessimism

Pivotal Quotes: "Nearly two decades later, I would now cross the street to avoid some of the people who were at my New Year's Eve party." — Anne Applebaum: Opening example illustrating the personal and political fracture among former allies "The reasons were often very different. So some people were part of it because they were realpolitik conservatives, or even realpolitik centrists." — Anne Applebaum: Explaining why the old conservative coalition was unstable and eventually split "I think it's actually irresponsible to be pessimistic." — Anne Applebaum: Her case for maintaining some confidence in democratic renewal despite current dangers

Implications: Democracies face a real risk from polarization, identity politics, and media-driven authoritarian appeals, but reforms to institutions, platforms, and accountability can still help preserve pluralism and order.