The Michael Shermer Show
The Michael Shermer Show

DOGE, Government Fraud, and AI Audits

Jeremy Jones joins Michael Shermer to talk about DOGE AI, government fraud, and the strange reality that some of the biggest problems in public life are both widely known and somehow never fixed. Jones explains how his team uses AI to sort through enormous government datasets, isolate suspicious bil

Topics Discussed

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: The episode is a wide-ranging, ideologically charged conversation centered on immigration enforcement, government fraud, AI-driven accountability, education reform, media trust, and political realignment. The guest argues that borders, ID requirements, and anti-fraud efforts are common-sense reforms blocked by incentives and identity politics, while AI tools can expose waste and reshape journalism and governance.

Main Topics: Immigration, ICE, and border enforcement (Priority: 5/5): The guest argues that illegal immigration should be addressed through strict border control, deportation of unlawful entrants, and a rebuilt legal immigration queue. He rejects claims that ICE is randomly targeting brown people and frames enforcement as lawful, data-driven, and necessary for public order. Government fraud, DOGE, and AI accountability (Priority: 5/5): A major theme is using AI to analyze large government datasets for fraud, waste, and abuse. The guest describes Redder/Doge AI as a public-good watchdog that can expose anomalies in federal, state, and local systems and argues that bureaucratic fraud is easier to commit than compliance. Education reform and school choice (Priority: 4/5): The conversation compares Luxembourg’s small-class, individualized education model with U.S. public schooling. The guest advocates shorter high school, military service, more critical thinking, vouchers or direct funding to families, and stronger outcomes-based accountability for schools and universities. Media trust, independent journalism, and AI fact-checking (Priority: 4/5): The guest argues that mainstream media is losing relevance while independent creators like Nick Shirley can reach massive audiences and uncover stories ignored by legacy outlets. AI is presented as a tool to empower independent journalists with fact-checking and investigative support. Political incentives, progressivism, and cultural conflict (Priority: 4/5): The discussion frames many progressive policies as detached from human nature and driven by guilt, incentives, and control of language. The guest claims progressivism and Marxism fail because they cannot account for bad actors exploiting collective systems. Global politics, autocracy, and free speech (Priority: 3/5): The conversation ranges across Venezuela, Iran, China, the UK, and Canada, arguing that autocracies persist through fear and self-interest, while free speech platforms and generational change are necessary for pro-capitalist, pro-freedom movements. AI, prediction markets, and existential risk (Priority: 3/5): The guest dismisses doomsday claims about AI killing humanity, but warns of the death of critical thinking as people outsource cognition to AI. He also criticizes prediction markets and hyper-financialization for amplifying insider information and distortions.

Key Arguments: Illegal immigration is not primarily about compassion; it is about incentives, accountability, and not knowing who is in the country. ICE enforcement is portrayed as targeted and lawful, not random racial profiling. AI can dramatically improve fraud detection by analyzing massive public datasets that humans cannot meaningfully audit. Government fraud and waste are so large that large portions of budgets could be siphoned off without public awareness. Education should teach students how to think, not what to think, and should be evaluated by outcomes like employability. Independent journalists can now rival legacy media because social platforms plus AI remove gatekeeping bottlenecks. Centrism is weak because primaries reward radicals and politicians often govern more ideologically than their campaign rhetoric suggests. AI is less likely to destroy humanity than to erode critical thinking and make people dependent on machine-generated answers.

Data Points: Border engagements: Lowest ever - Used to support the claim that border enforcement under Trump's second term is working Crime: Down drastically - Presented as a result of current Trump administration policy Charles Kirk vigil/prayer turnout: Largest in U.S. history - Cited in discussion of public reaction after Charlie Kirk was shot Illegal immigration journey mortality: More than 50% die - Claimed about the route through the Darien Gap/jungle toward the U.S. border HHS/Medicare data analyzed: 10-gigabyte dataset - Redder’s AI analysis of federal health billing and provider records Fraud flagged in one analysis: $37 billion - Described as the amount tied to the top 173 flagged providers in a billing analysis Class size in Luxembourg school: About 10 kids per teacher - Used as a model for individualized education University funding benchmark proposal: 80% - Suggested job-placement rate needed within six months for federal funding eligibility Education time proposal: 2 years high school + 2 years military service - Guest’s proposed reform for U.S. young adults California GDP: Fourth or fifth largest in the world - Used to argue that California should still be vulnerable to large-scale waste, fraud, and abuse Nick Shirley media reach: 6.9 billion mentions by end of January - Used to illustrate the power of independent creators Nick Shirley X video views: 500 million - Referenced as the reach of the Minnesota fraud video Prediction market wager: $400,000 - Mentioned in the Maduro kidnapping betting example Long Now Foundation bet: $1,000 - Example of a peer-to-peer bet on aliens by 2030

Pivotal Quotes: "The notion that people are rounding up brown people that are randomly walking down the street is just not true." — Jeremy Jones: He rejects claims that ICE operations amount to racialized street sweeps "The problem with a lot of progressive policies, they can't account for human nature." — Jeremy Jones: He explains why collective systems are vulnerable to sociopaths and abuse "The death of critical thought is upon us." — Jeremy Jones: His warning that AI will cause people to outsource thinking and reasoning

Implications: Listeners are left with a strong anti-bureaucracy, pro-enforcement, pro-school-choice, and pro-AI-accountability worldview. The broader message: institutions will keep failing unless incentives, transparency, and human judgment are rebuilt around them.

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