Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Jason Jacobs interviews Adele Morris of Brookings on carbon pricing, policy design, and political feasibility. Morris argues that pricing carbon is the most economically efficient way to reduce emissions, drive innovation, and manage trade and household impacts, while stressing that durable climate progress requires legislative action, bipartisan engagement, and informed public advocacy.
Main Topics: Brookings and Morris’s policy research role (Priority: 4/5): Morris explains Brookings as a nonpartisan policy research institution and describes her work as applying economic analysis to climate and energy policy, with attention to legislation, implementation, and outcomes at multiple levels of government. Why carbon pricing matters (Priority: 5/5): The conversation lays out the core economic logic of carbon pricing: it internalizes the external costs of greenhouse gas emissions, changes relative prices across fuels, and steers both current operations and future investment toward lower-carbon choices. Carbon tax design, revenue use, and border adjustments (Priority: 5/5): Morris discusses design features of carbon tax proposals, including revenue recycling, protecting lower-income households, using revenue for growth or resiliency, and border carbon adjustments to address competitiveness concerns. Political polarization and the need for impartial analysis (Priority: 4/5): The discussion addresses how climate policy is debated in a polarized environment and why Morris believes rigorous, nonpartisan research is still valuable for lawmakers, stakeholders, and the public. Innovation, markets, and policy support (Priority: 4/5): Morris argues that innovation alone is insufficient; low-carbon technologies need market incentives created by carbon pricing so they can compete against fossil fuels on fair economic terms. Grassroots and bipartisan advocacy for legislation (Priority: 5/5): Morris emphasizes that real progress depends on citizens, businesses, and legislators pushing for specific carbon pricing policies rather than generic climate action, with examples of bipartisan legislative efforts and civic lobbying. Green New Deal and broader climate strategy (Priority: 3/5): She frames the Green New Deal as a vision statement rather than a specific policy proposal, while reiterating that carbon pricing should be central but not the only tool, alongside adaptation and R&D support.
Key Arguments: Carbon pricing works because it makes polluters pay the environmental cost of emissions, shifting energy demand toward cleaner sources. A carbon price affects both immediate dispatch decisions in electricity markets and long-term capital investment in power plants and industrial facilities. Border carbon adjustments can reduce competitiveness concerns by taxing carbon-intensive imports and rebating exports. Revenue from a carbon tax can be returned to households, used for pro-growth purposes, reduced deficit financing, or climate resilience investments. The policy burden on low-income households can be made manageable because they consume a smaller share of the taxed goods on average. Carbon pricing is more durable and economically rational than relying solely on regulatory swings tied to changing administrations. Innovation is essential, but without policy support and carbon prices, low-carbon technologies face an uphill battle against cheaper fossil alternatives. Grassroots advocacy and direct legislative pressure are necessary because general climate concern is less effective than specific policy demands. Bipartisan and transparent carbon pricing can improve U.S. climate leadership and potentially influence international cooperation. The Green New Deal should be treated as a broad vision; concrete emissions policy still needs to be specified and analyzed.
Data Points: Brookings tenure: Since July 2008 - Morris says she has been at Brookings for more than a decade. Treasury Department experience: 9 years - She previously served as the lead natural resource economist at the U.S. Treasury Department. Major modeling groups in study: 11 - Morris describes a multi-model analysis of U.S. carbon tax designs involving 11 major modeling groups. Carbon in coal vs natural gas: About twice as much - She explains that coal contains roughly twice the carbon per unit of energy as natural gas. Border carbon adjustment coverage: Primary metals, chemicals, glass, and other energy-intensive goods - She lists examples of imports that might be covered by a border carbon adjustment. Citizen advocacy turnout: Well over 1,000 people - Morris cites Citizens Climate Lobby’s Washington, D.C. convention lobbying effort. Employees mobilized at Amazon: 7,600 - She references employee pressure on corporate leadership to support climate policy. Event date referenced: The 20th - She mentions an upcoming Brookings event with Senator Chris Coons and Congressman Francis Rooney.
Pivotal Quotes: "we can tell you with confidence that if you put a price on carbon, you will get less of it" — Adele Morris: Explaining what the multi-model carbon tax study could establish robustly across modeling approaches "I don't think the answer is going to be in spending. I think the answer is going to be in policy." — Adele Morris: Responding to the hypothetical $100 billion allocation question "the alternative is unthinkable" — Adele Morris: Encouraging listeners to retain hope in Congress’s ability to act on climate policy
Implications: Listeners are urged to see carbon pricing as the most practical long-term climate lever, but only if citizens, companies, and lawmakers push for specific, durable legislation. The message: policy—not subsidies alone—must shape markets, innovation, and international leadership.