The Huberman Lab
The Huberman Lab

Essentials: Psychedelics for Treating Mental Disorders | Dr. Matthew Johnson

In this Huberman Lab Essentials episode, my guest is Dr. Matthew Johnson, PhD, a senior researcher for the Center of Excellence for Psilocybin Research and Treatment at Sheppard Pratt’s Institute for Advanced Diagnostics and Therapeutics. We explore the science and therapeutic potential of psychedel

Featured Speakers

Scicomm Media Host

Topics Discussed

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: The conversation explains what qualifies as a psychedelic, how classic psychedelics and MDMA differ pharmacologically and experientially, and why set, setting, and guided therapy matter. It emphasizes that therapeutic benefit often comes from profound shifts in self-representation, while also warning about risks, especially bad trips and use in people with psychotic or manic disorders. The discussion closes with skepticism about microdosing and cautious optimism about future uses for trauma and brain injury.

Main Topics: What counts as a psychedelic (Priority: 5/5): Johnson distinguishes cultural usage from pharmacology, grouping classic psychedelics, NMDA antagonists, and MDMA under a broad umbrella because they can all profoundly alter reality and self-experience. Serotonin 2A and altered models of reality (Priority: 5/5): Classic psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin act primarily as agonists or partial agonists at the serotonin 2A receptor, which may disrupt predictive models and self-representation rather than simply increasing serotonin. Therapeutic protocol: screening, preparation, and setting (Priority: 5/5): Clinical psychedelic sessions involve psychiatric and cardiovascular screening, rapport-building, and detailed preparation so participants can safely surrender to the experience in a supportive container. Self-representation, surrender, and therapeutic change (Priority: 5/5): A central mechanism proposed is lasting change in how people represent themselves, often producing 'duh' realizations about agency, identity, addiction, depression, and trauma. MDMA versus classic psychedelics (Priority: 4/5): MDMA is described as distinct, with strong serotonin and dopamine effects and a lower likelihood of the reality-shattering 'bad trip' common with psilocybin or LSD, making it especially promising for trauma. Risks, bad trips, and microdosing skepticism (Priority: 4/5): The main dangers are destabilization in vulnerable psychiatric populations and acute bad trips; Johnson says credible evidence for microdosing benefits is lacking, with studies showing no benefit or slight impairment. Future directions: brain injury and neuroplasticity (Priority: 4/5): Early animal data and human anecdotes suggest psychedelics may promote neuroplasticity and possibly help with depression and cognitive issues after repetitive head impacts or other neurological injuries.

Key Arguments: Psychedelics are best understood as compounds that profoundly alter reality and self-models, not as a single pharmacological class. Classic psychedelics primarily act on serotonin 2A receptors, but the subjective effects likely arise from broader changes in predictive processing and self-representation. Therapeutic benefit depends heavily on screening, preparation, and a safe interpersonal container that allows participants to let go of control. The most important clinical change may be a durable shift in identity, such as seeing oneself as capable of quitting smoking or no longer defined by depression. MDMA may be especially useful for trauma because it is less likely than psilocybin/LSD to produce overwhelming reality fragmentation and panic. Bad trips are common enough to matter even in well-run studies; at high-dose psilocybin, about one-third of participants report some period of bad-trip-like distress. Microdosing currently lacks credible evidence for improving mood, creativity, or cognition, and may slightly impair time perception. Psychedelics may eventually prove useful for neurological recovery, but current evidence is preliminary and largely based on rodent neuroplasticity findings plus human anecdotes.

Data Points: Psilocybin dose in studies: 20–30 mg - Typical therapeutic dose range described for psilocybin sessions High-dose psilocybin bad-trip rate: About one-third - Even in a well-prepared clinical setting, roughly one-third of participants report some period of bad-trip-like distress Protein in sponsor example: 28 grams - Mentioned in sponsor ad for David protein bars Calories in sponsor example: 150 calories - Mentioned in sponsor ad for David protein bars Protein share of calories: 75% - Sponsor claim for David protein bars Relative protein comparison: 50% higher - Sponsor claim that David bars have 50% higher protein than the next closest protein bar AG1 subscription bonus: 1 month - Sponsor offer includes a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil AG1 added supplement: Vitamin D3 plus K2 - Sponsor offer included with AG1 subscription BetterHelp discount: 10% off first month - Sponsor offer for online therapy

Pivotal Quotes: "all of the so-called psychedelics ... have the ability to profoundly alter one's sense of reality" β€” Dr. Matthew Johnson: Defines the broad unifying feature across psychedelic classes "the common denominator are persisting changes in self-representation" β€” Dr. Matthew Johnson: Explains the likely therapeutic mechanism behind lasting benefits "About a third of people will say essentially at some point they have a bad trip" β€” Dr. Matthew Johnson: Describes the frequency of acute distress even in controlled psilocybin sessions

Implications: Listeners should view psychedelics as powerful, context-dependent tools with real risks and promising therapeutic potential. The field is moving toward evidence-based use, but microdosing remains unproven and future applications for trauma and brain injury are still early-stage.

πŸ”“ Sign Up for Unlimited Episode Search

About The Huberman Lab

The Huberman Lab podcast is hosted by Andrew Huberman, Ph.D., a neuroscientist and tenured professor in the department of neurobiology, and by courtesy, psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford School of Medicine. The podcast discusses neuroscience and science-based tools, including how our brain and its connections with the organs of our body control our perceptions, our behaviors, and our health, as well as existing and emerging tools for measuring and changing how our nervous system works. Huberman has made numerous significant contributions to the fields of brain development, brain function, and neural plasticity, which is the ability of our nervous system to rewire and learn new behaviors, skills, and cognitive functioning. He is a McKnight Foundation and Pew Foundation Fellow and was awarded the Cogan Award, given to the scientist making the most significant discoveries in the study of vision, in 2017. Work from the Huberman Laboratory at Stanford School of Medicine has been published in top journals, including Nature, Science, and Cell, and has been featured in TIME, BBC, Scientific American, Discover, and other top media outlets. In 2021, Dr. Huberman launched the Huberman Lab podcast. The podcast is frequently ranked in the top 10 of all podcasts globally and is often ranked #1 in the categories of Science, Education, and Health & Fitness.

View all episodes from The Huberman Lab