How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Stephen Dubner interviews Ann Pasternak of the Brooklyn Museum and Michael Roth of Wesleyan about leading cultural and educational institutions during distrust, polarization, and AI disruption. They argue museums and universities should model values, host disagreement, support belonging and freedom, and preserve social, in-person experiences that can’t be reduced to screens or resumes.

Main Topics: Institutional leadership in an anti-institution era (Priority: 5/5): Both guests describe the pressure of running institutions amid distrust, criticism, and political conflict, but insist their jobs still matter because museums and universities should contribute to public life rather than retreat from it. Museums as public space, inclusion, and truth-telling (Priority: 5/5): Pasternak says the Brooklyn Museum should be a place of reality, joy, and confrontation with uncomfortable truths, while also welcoming people of all backgrounds and modeling inclusion rather than merely speaking about it. Universities as spaces for freedom, experimentation, and rigor (Priority: 5/5): Roth argues Wesleyan is not a resume factory but a place where students practice freedom, discover identity, and combine intellectual rigor with experimentation across disciplines. Fundraising, endowments, and financial constraints (Priority: 4/5): The conversation turns to the practical realities of fundraising, tuition, financial aid, endowment size, and the challenge of maintaining access while covering rising costs. October 7, Israel/Palestine, and public response (Priority: 5/5): Both guests discuss being pushed into public controversy after October 7: Pasternak as a Jewish museum leader targeted by boycott activism and Roth as a university president writing publicly about violence, authoritarianism, and campus speech. Free speech, dissent, and the value of disagreement (Priority: 4/5): Roth recounts inviting Antonin Scalia to Wesleyan to show that institutions should make room for hard conversations, protest, and genuine exchange rather than avoiding controversial figures. AI, context, and the future of learning and museum-going (Priority: 4/5): They see AI as a tool that can complement but not replace in-person education or art viewing, since people still want human presence, social learning, and deep contextual understanding.

Key Arguments: Museums and universities should not just describe values like inclusion and belonging; they should visibly practice them in how they operate. Cultural institutions have a public responsibility to engage in difficult conversations rather than avoid controversy. Trust in museums remains relatively high compared with other institutions, even if internal critics remain sharp. Wesleyan is designed for experimentation, not merely credential-building; students should be able to combine seemingly disparate interests. Fundraising is essential because financial aid and access depend on it; tuition stickers are misleading because many students pay far less. The best educational and cultural experiences are social and embodied: people learn and feel more deeply when they are physically together. AI can improve access to context and support classroom work, but it should complement, not replace, live teaching or museum objects. Protest and disagreement can still coexist with serious dialogue and even produce better understanding. Leadership requires calm, humility, and not taking criticism personally, because public blame and credit often fall on administrators for things beyond their control.

Data Points: Wesleyan endowment: $1.6 billion - Roth cites this as the university’s endowment during discussion of fundraising and financial aid. Brooklyn Museum endowment: over $200 million - Pasternak contrasts this with Wesleyan’s larger endowment and notes the museum’s financial constraints. Tuition list price at Wesleyan: about $76,000+ per year - Roth says the sticker price is around this amount, depending on whether room and board are included. Share of Wesleyan students not paying full price: about 40%+ - Roth says roughly this share do not pay list price. Share of non-full-pay students paying almost nothing: about half of the 40% - Roth explains that about half of the discounted group pay nearly nothing. Average financial aid grant at Wesleyan: over $60,000 - Roth says the average grant for aided students exceeds this amount. Wesleyan students on financial aid: 42% - Roth provides this figure while discussing access and affordability. Museum visitors who pay nothing: more than half - Pasternak says the Brooklyn Museum is pay-what-you-wish, so over half of audiences do not pay admission. Museum collections span: 5,500 years - Pasternak describes the Brooklyn Museum as holding works representing 5,500 years of human creativity. Time on the museum board communication protocol: early in tenure onward - Roth says he notifies board chairs when press pieces are coming but does not run every public statement by them. Benefits growth at museums: 24% this year - Pasternak cites this as an outside cost pressure affecting museum operations.

Pivotal Quotes: "We don't just talk about it, we model it." — Ann Pasternak: On how the Brooklyn Museum tries to embody inclusion rather than simply espouse it. "Wesleyan is a place where students can practice freedom while they're creating something new and discovering who they are." — Michael Roth: On the university’s purpose beyond resume-building. "I think everybody learned that you could have a really good discussion with someone who you deeply disagree with." — Michael Roth: Reflecting on the Antonin Scalia event at Wesleyan.

Implications: The episode argues that museums and universities must stay publicly engaged, financially adaptive, and socially inclusive. Their value lies in human presence, difficult dialogue, and contextual learning—things AI and online platforms can support but not replace.