Is Italy on the Verge of Returning to Fascism?

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: The episode opens with a BetterHelp ad and then splits into two economics discussions: the rise of Italy’s Brothers of Italy and what fascism means economically, and Australia’s unusual long-run economic success. Adam Tooze argues classical fascism lacked a coherent economic program beyond anti-socialism, anti-liberalism, class collaboration, militarism, and racial conquest. The Australia segment traces prosperity to reforms, migration, China-driven commodity demand, and policy resilience, while warning that growth has not reduced political conflict, especially over climate and media power.

Main Topics: BetterHelp sponsorship and seasonal mental health framing (Priority: 2/5): The show begins with a sponsor read linking shortened winter days in Berlin to the importance of checking in on friends and considering therapy, using BetterHelp as the service promoted. Italian far-right politics and the Brothers of Italy (Priority: 5/5): The hosts discuss Giorgia Meloni’s likely rise, the Brothers of Italy’s fascist lineage, symbolic continuity with Mussolini, and why the party’s broad appeal matters for contemporary European politics. What fascism meant economically (Priority: 5/5): Tooze argues fascism was not a coherent economic doctrine but a crisis politics defined by anti-socialism, anti-liberalism, class collaboration in theory, and war, conquest, and racial hierarchy in practice. Social base and electoral appeal of fascism and the modern far right (Priority: 4/5): The conversation contrasts classical fascism’s petty-bourgeois and lower-middle-class base with the broader voter coalition of contemporary Italian far-right parties, including some working-class support. Australia’s 29-year growth streak and its causes (Priority: 5/5): The second half explains Australia’s long expansion through market reforms, migration, commodity exports to Asia, debt discipline, and a flexible exchange rate that absorbed shocks. Growth, climate conflict, and media power in Australia (Priority: 4/5): Even with strong growth, Australia remains politically polarized, especially on climate policy, with Rupert Murdoch’s media influence cited as a major factor in the country’s toxic political environment. Australia’s geography, trade, and environmental imbalance (Priority: 4/5): The discussion shows how Australia’s coastal urban concentration, resource-rich interior, Commonwealth legacy, Asian migration, and disrupted ecosystems—including booming kangaroo populations—shape its economy and environment.

Key Arguments: Classical fascism did not have a single, coherent economic program; its main economic identity was negative—anti-socialist and anti-liberal. Fascist regimes sought class collaboration and incorporation of workers, but in practice these arrangements were heavily tilted toward big business and elite interests. The essence of fascism appears most clearly in conquest, imperialism, and racial hierarchy, not in peacetime administration. Contemporary far-right parties like Brothers of Italy can draw voters from a wide swath of society rather than a single class, making them electorally durable. Italy’s constitutional structure matters less than its underlying problems: high debt requires Brussels-compatible management, while slow growth may require broad long-term consensus. Australia’s long boom came from a combination of domestic reform, immigration-driven labor growth, Chinese demand for resources, and prudent macroeconomic management. Per-capita performance is less dramatic than headline GDP because much of Australia’s growth was driven by population growth. Economic growth alone does not eliminate political conflict; in Australia, climate policy and media concentration have produced persistent polarization. Rupert Murdoch’s control of a large share of Australian print media is presented as a structural force behind the country’s partisan toxicity. Australia’s resource-rich interior is economically central despite being sparsely populated, because mining exports underpin the national economy.

Data Points: Vote share of Brothers of Italy in 2018: 4% - The party’s share in the previous Italian national election before its surge in polls. Latest polling for Brothers of Italy: 25% - Projected share that could make Giorgia Meloni’s party the largest in Italy. BetterHelp discount: 10% off first month - Offer for listeners using betterhelp.com/ones.twos. BetterHelp scale: 30,000 therapists - Promoted as one of the world’s largest online therapy platforms. BetterHelp users: over 5 million globally - Advertised platform reach. BetterHelp rating: 4.9 out of 5 - Average rating for a live session based on client reviews. Client reviews: 1.7 million - Reviews used to support BetterHelp’s rating claim. Australia’s recession-free stretch: 29 years - The long period of growth from 1991 to 2020 before the pandemic recession. Australia population growth: 17 million to 25 million - Population increase from 1990 to 2020 cited as part of economic expansion. Share of annual GDP growth from labor input: more than a quarter - Population growth contributed significantly to headline economic growth. Australia’s trade with Asia today: about 70% - Asia’s share of Australian trade in the present day. Australia trade with Britain in the 1950s: 50% or more - UK dominance in Australia’s external trade during the mid-20th century. Asian-born share of Australian population, 1961: 0.3% - Before liberalization of migration policy. Asian-born share of Australian population, 1996: 5.5% - After decades of post-White Australia migration changes. Asian-born share of Australian population today: 13.4% - Current share of Asian-born residents in Australia. Australian print media controlled by Murdoch: 59% - Cited as a major source of media concentration and polarization. Kangaroo population in 1980: 60 million - Approximate estimate before major declines and rebounds. Kangaroo population in 1989: 15 million - Sharp crash after the 1980 peak. Kangaroo population in 2009: 27 million - Population recovery estimate. Kangaroo population in 2013: 53 million - Peak estimate in the modern period. Kangaroo population currently: 42 million - Recent estimate discussed as a continuing ecological challenge. Australia’s largest mining exports: iron ore and bauxite - The country is described as the world’s largest producer of both. Number of Australian prime ministers felled over climate politics: 3 - Since 2010, leaders were politically damaged or removed in climate disputes.

Pivotal Quotes: "What defines what the fascist economic reality was, you'd say it was warmaking for the purposes of racial conquest." — Adam Tooze: Summing up the economic essence of classical fascism. "Economic growth by itself does not, as it were, solve your problems." — Adam Tooze: Reflecting on Australia’s long boom and continuing political conflict. "Australia is really the third amongst the British settler colonial projects... with this contested climate politics." — Adam Tooze: Comparing Australia’s climate battles to those in the United States and Canada.

Implications: The episode argues that extremist politics can survive without a coherent economic program, while long-run prosperity still leaves room for deep political conflict. For listeners, the lesson is that institutions, media, migration, and ecological pressures matter as much as growth.