Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Michael Shermer and sociologist Christian Smith discuss why traditional religion in America has declined, arguing the change is real, generational, and driven by broad cultural shifts—not a single cause. Smith says religion has become culturally obsolete, while spirituality and alternative forms of enchantment have grown. They examine the roles of the internet, postmodernism, multiculturalism, gender, scandals, and political polarization.
Main Topics: Religion’s Decline in America: Smith argues that traditional religion has measurably declined in belief, affiliation, participation, and institutional trust, especially across successive generations in the U.S. Generational Replacement as the Main Driver: The conversation emphasizes that younger cohorts are systematically less religious than older ones, creating a conveyor-belt effect as older, more religious generations die off. Cultural Obsolescence vs. Simple Decline: Smith’s central claim is that religion did not merely lose adherents; it became old-fashioned and less relevant within the broader cultural zeitgeist. Multiple Social Forces: Internet, Postmodernism, Multiculturalism, Gender: They explore how technology, relativism, pluralism, women’s changing roles, and intensive parenting all unintentionally crowded out traditional religion. Scandals, 9/11, and New Atheism: Clergy abuse, televangelism, 9/11, and anti-religious arguments amplified distrust of institutions and helped push some people away from religion. Rise of Spirituality and Re-enchanted Culture: Smith argues many ex-religious Americans did not become secularists but moved into spirituality, New Age beliefs, healing practices, and other alternative forms of meaning. Christian Nationalism and Future Religion: Smith sees militant Christian nationalism as a symptom of religion’s obsolescence and predicts religion will persist in some form, including possible new forms on Mars.
Key Arguments: Traditional religion in the U.S. is in measurable decline across belief, practice, affiliation, and trust in clergy; this is now a well-established empirical fact. The decline is largely generational: each younger cohort is less religious than the one before, so demographic replacement drives long-term secularization. Smith rejects simple, universal secularization theory; different contexts produce different outcomes, so religion declines in some places and grows in others. Religion has become culturally obsolete, meaning it feels out of date and less socially relevant, not merely numerically weaker. The biggest losses are in institutional religion; belief in God, prayer, and afterlife beliefs have declined less sharply. Many people leaving religion do not become atheists; they move into spirituality, esotericism, New Age practices, or individualized forms of meaning. The internet accelerated decline by exposing people to alternatives, enabling anonymous doubt, and creating communities like ex-Mormons. Postmodernism and multiculturalism weakened confidence in truth claims and authority, making traditional religious claims seem relativistic or optional. Women’s increased labor-force participation reduced the unpaid volunteer labor that sustained congregations and increased time pressures on families. Clergy scandals and 9/11 eroded religion’s perceived moral authority and contributed to the idea that religion is associated with corruption or violence. Christian nationalism reflects desperation and overreaction from a shrinking traditional religious subculture rather than proof of a revival. Humans likely will always create sacred forms and meaning systems, so religion may transform rather than disappear entirely.
Data Points: Year the rise of the 'nuns' begins: 1991 - Smith identifies 1991 as the turning point when Americans saying they were religiously unaffiliated began rising sharply. Americans over-reporting church attendance: Up to 50% - Smith says self-reported religious service attendance is inflated because people overstate how often they attend. Boomer generation religiousness: About 25% unaffiliated (approximate, discussed from memory) - Shermer and Smith discuss generational differences in religious non-affiliation, with boomers less unaffiliated than younger cohorts. Decline pattern by generation: Boomers > Gen X > Millennials > Gen Z in religiousness - Smith describes a stepwise drop in religiosity across successive generations. Number of possible survey dimensions of religiosity: Affiliation, belief, practice, expected behaviors, etc. - Smith distinguishes multiple measures rather than a single religiousness metric. Estimated survey bias: Religious attendance may be over-reported by as much as 50% - Used to explain why self-reports differ from actual practice. Age of first pregnancy for boomer women vs today: 19 vs 29 - Shermer cites Jean Twenge’s generational data to illustrate broad cultural change affecting life course and religion. Number of major factors cited in the book: About 10 - Smith says the digital revolution alone produced roughly ten distinct pathways of impact on religion. Age of the latest sexual revolution: Third sexual revolution - Smith argues a new revolution, amplified by the internet and digital media, normalized behaviors at odds with traditional religion.
Pivotal Quotes: "the U.S. is just going to be like Europe. Every cultural trajectory is its own thing." — Christian Smith: Smith rejects simplistic secularization models and emphasizes context-specific religious change. "religion went obsolete, folks." — Christian Smith: He states the core thesis of his new book and frames religion as culturally superseded, not merely declining. "It was not so much this sort of intellectual working it out. I think it was more just sort of a zeitgeisty spirit of like walking away saying religion is just way behind the times, it's out of touch, it doesn't know what's going on." — Christian Smith: Smith explains why many people left traditional religion without careful doctrinal reasoning.
Implications: Traditional religion may keep shrinking, while spirituality, identity-based politics, and customized meaning systems grow. For institutions, the challenge is adapting to a culture that no longer treats religion as default or authoritative.