Jessica Riskin on Life, Machinery, and the Restless Clock

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Jessica Riskin discusses The Restless Clock, tracing how biology has long oscillated between viewing living things as passive machines governed by external design and as active, self-making systems with internal agency. The conversation links this history to Darwin, Lamarck, economics, emergence, AI, and modern epigenetics, arguing that scientific models are shaped by theology, metaphor, and historical context.

Main Topics: Passive mechanism vs. living agency (Priority: 5/5): Riskin explains the book’s central tension: whether organisms are best understood as clocklike machines or as active, self-transforming systems with varying degrees of agency. Theological roots of modern mechanism (Priority: 5/5): The mechanical view of nature arose in the 17th century alongside design arguments, where agency was relocated to an external divine designer while nature itself was treated as matter in motion. Lamarck, Darwin, and evolutionary transformation (Priority: 5/5): The discussion contrasts Lamarck’s spectrum of agency and inherited change with Darwin’s struggle to combine adaptation, selection, and transformation while distancing himself from overly romantic or discredited ideas. Metaphor in science and economics (Priority: 4/5): Roberts and Riskin compare biological models to economics, arguing that phrases like 'as if' or equilibrium are useful simplifications but can blur the line between explanatory models and reality. Emergence, complexity, and reductionism (Priority: 4/5): Riskin argues that emergence names the gap between lower-level mechanisms and higher-level phenomena like sentience, behavior, and market order, and that overly reductive explanations miss important causal layers. AI, instinct, and the limits of computation (Priority: 4/5): The conversation uses artificial intelligence and animal behavior to show that impressive computational achievements do not necessarily illuminate consciousness, sentience, or the inner life of organisms. Schrödinger and restless clockwork (Priority: 4/5): Schrödinger’s What Is Life? is presented as a return to the clock metaphor, but one where the clock is springless, self-moving, and Brownian—another version of restless living machinery.

Key Arguments: Scientific models of living things have historically been shaped by a struggle between passive mechanism and internal agency, not by a single linear idea of biology. Early modern mechanism was not purely secular; it often depended on a supernatural designer to provide the agency removed from nature itself. Lamarck’s importance lies not only in inheritance of acquired traits but in his broader view of organisms as responsive across a spectrum from simple sensitivity to conscious will. Darwin was intellectually torn between Paley’s design-based passive clockwork and Lamarck’s self-transforming living systems, and his theory reflects that tension. Modern biology often speaks casually in agentive language while publishing in mechanistic language, revealing a persistent gap between practice and formal explanation. Economics faces similar problems: equilibrium and rational choice are powerful simplifying tools, but can be mistaken for literal descriptions of human behavior. Emergence is a placeholder for real complexity: higher-level order can arise from lower-level interactions without being fully reducible to them. Artificial intelligence advances show that computers can outperform humans in tasks like chess and Go without resolving the deeper question of sentience or consciousness. Current work in epigenetics and the extended evolutionary synthesis suggests that inheritance and development involve more than genes alone. Historical humility is essential: brilliant thinkers often used the most advanced metaphors available in their era, but those metaphors later proved limited.

Data Points: Podcast date: Monday, January 14th, 2019 - Russ Roberts introduces the episode date at the start. Book publication year: 2016 - Riskin’s book The Restless Clock is identified as the subject of the conversation. Historical origin of mechanism: 17th century - Riskin says the passive and active machine models of living things emerged around the 17th century. Evolutionary theorist reference: End of the 18th century / beginning of the 19th century - Riskin places Lamarck’s theory of transformation of living forms in this period. Artificial intelligence milestone examples: Chess, then Go - Riskin uses these as examples of AI tasks once thought impossible but later solved. Biology conference/network: Extended evolutionary synthesis - Riskin mentions current biologists working to incorporate cell, body, environment, and culture into evolutionary theory.

Pivotal Quotes: "living things are active machines. They're self-making, continually self-transforming. They have a kind of internal agency." — Jessica Riskin: Riskin defines the book’s alternative to brute mechanism. "the purpose of that model... came out of a theological tradition, the argument from design" — Jessica Riskin: She explains the historical and religious roots of passive mechanistic biology. "a springless clock might suddenly begin to move at the expense of the heat energy of its own cogwheel and of the environment" — Jessica Riskin: She cites Schrödinger’s restless clockwork image from What is Life?

Implications: The conversation encourages listeners to treat scientific models as historically contingent tools, not final truths. It suggests that biology, economics, and AI all need richer accounts of complexity, agency, and emergence than simple mechanistic reductionism provides.