Jill Lepore on Nationalism, Populism, and the State of America

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Jill Lepore argues that historians should reclaim the writing of national history from partisan mythmaking and globalist neglect. She says nations need a fair, evidence-based story to sustain civic belonging, but warns against illiberal nationalism, which demands loyalty without scrutiny. The conversation ranges from historiography, the Civil War and Vietnam-era memory wars, to media, polling, social media, and the fragility of truth in modern democracy.

Main Topics: Why historians abandoned the nation (Priority: 5/5): Lepore explains that nationalism seemed to fade in the late 20th century amid globalization, Cold War optimism, and a shift in academia away from the nation-state toward marginalized groups and conflict-based histories. The need for a national story (Priority: 5/5): She argues that citizens need a coherent, fair account of why the United States exists, but that story must remain open to scrutiny rather than become civic myth or propaganda. Illiberal nationalism vs. civic belonging (Priority: 5/5): Lepore distinguishes inclusive, civic national identity from illiberal nationalism, which elevates the nation above criticism and can be weaponized in politics. History writing, presidentialism, and public culture (Priority: 4/5): The discussion contrasts scholarly history with popular presidential biography, arguing that overfocus on presidents distorts public understanding of how change actually happens. Truth, media, and the internet (Priority: 5/5): Lepore laments the collapse of editorial gatekeeping, the weakening of newspapers, and the rise of social media and algorithmic information systems that make truth harder to establish. Populism, belonging, and economic grievance (Priority: 4/5): She links the rise of nationalism and populism to political enfranchisement alongside economic exclusion, plus a search for blame and belonging in times of anxiety. Polling, civic glue, and lost face-to-face politics (Priority: 4/5): Lepore traces how campaigns moved from neighborhood conversation to polling to data extraction, reducing the interpersonal contact that once helped knit political communities together.

Key Arguments: Historians neglected nationalism partly because academia in the 1960s-90s shifted toward studying marginalized groups and conflict, and partly because globalization made the nation seem outdated. A national story is necessary because nations are artificial political creations; without a fair account of origins and ideals, citizens are vulnerable to partisan or authoritarian mythmaking. Illiberal nationalism is dangerous because it turns loyalty into a test of legitimacy and discourages criticism, effectively making fellow citizens into enemies. Popular history’s fixation on presidents magnifies presidential power and obscures the broader social, economic, legal, and movement-based forces shaping events. The current information environment is unstable because traditional editorial processes have weakened, while social media and search algorithms reward speed, outrage, and tribal reinforcement rather than truth. Populist nationalism often emerges when people are newly enfranchised politically but feel left behind economically; demagogues can redirect real grievance toward scapegoats. Belonging still matters, but healthy belonging can exist at multiple levels—city, region, religion, nation—without requiring exclusive nationalist identity. A democracy needs evidence-based standards for knowledge, not just skepticism; recognizing bias is not enough if people cannot assess truth or justify claims fairly.

Data Points: Publication date: March 1st, 2019 - EconTalk episode date and interview setting Book length: 961 pages - Russ Roberts praises Lepore's book These Truths as a long-form history of the United States Women’s suffrage: 1920 - Lepore notes women were not guaranteed the right to vote until 1920 Voting Rights Act era: 1960s - Lepore says African Americans were not fully guaranteed the right to vote on the ground until the 1960s Scopes Trial: 1925 - Lepore cites the Scopes trial as a historical example of battles over truth and democracy Cold War/area studies shift: 1950s to 1980s-1990s - She describes area studies emerging from the national security state in the 1950s and being replaced by global studies in the 1980s and 1990s End of Cold War: Fall of the Berlin Wall / post-1989 - Used as a marker for the sense that nationalism had run its course Bicentennial: 1976 - She discusses competing visions of the American Bicentennial and the 1976 Declaration of Independence anniversary Lyndon Johnson Bicentennial Commission: 1964 - Johnson started the Bicentennial Commission in 1964 to prepare an inclusive celebration National Origins Act: 1924 - Referenced as an example of history too complex for elementary civic pageantry Pollster interviews: 90-minute conversations - Gallup pollsters in the 1930s conducted long face-to-face interviews before modern polling methods

Pivotal Quotes: "People need to have an explanation for why the nation exists." — Jill Lepore: Explaining why historians should help provide a national story "If people who care about writing decent history that's fair and broad-minded don't do it, then other people step in and they offer up a kind of guard." — Jill Lepore: Warning that partisan actors will fill the vacuum left by responsible historians "Belonging really matters and belonging online is illusory." — Jill Lepore: Discussing social media, civic life, and the loss of face-to-face political community

Implications: The episode argues that democracy depends on honest national storytelling, trustworthy media, and real-world civic contact. Without them, populism, tribalism, and misinformation can harden into political extremism and weaken shared democratic reality.