Joanne Paul on Thomas More and the Tudor World

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Tyler Cowen and historian Joanne Paul examine Thomas More as a paradox: a brilliant humanist satirist and reform-minded thinker, yet also a defender of Catholic orthodoxy who persecuted heretics. They discuss Utopia’s riddling structure, its satire of wealth and hierarchy, Tudor politics, the limits of modern portrayals like A Man for All Seasons, and how Paul’s broader work links 16th-century contingency to modern questions about tyranny, faith, and institutions.

Main Topics: Thomas More and Erasmus: friendship, satire, and intellectual life (Priority: 5/5): Paul explains that More and Erasmus admired each other through shared Catholic commitments and a mutual love of satire, though their friendship was uneven and affected by More’s shift into royal service. Utopia as a puzzle of satire and seriousness (Priority: 5/5): The conversation frames Utopia as intentionally ambiguous: a satire of wealth, property, and pride, but also a serious attempt to imagine a society grounded in virtue and utility rather than status. Modern moral judgments and More’s persecution of heretics (Priority: 5/5): Paul resists reducing More to either hero or villain, stressing his fear of Lutheran fragmentation while acknowledging his support for imprisoning and executing heretics. Historical representation in film and culture (Priority: 4/5): They compare A Man for All Seasons and Wolf Hall, arguing that both flatten complexity by turning More and Cromwell into moral opposites rather than contradictory historical actors. Tudor society: mobility, governance, and identity (Priority: 4/5): The discussion covers Welsh Tudor origins, London’s semi-democratic institutions, social mobility through education, and the formal exclusion of women from governance. Religion, reform, and early modern intellectual change (Priority: 4/5): Paul describes the Reformation as an internal Catholic crisis, not an easy choice between belief and unbelief, and links the growth of literacy, grammar schools, and humanism to the rise of Shakespeare and the scientific revolution. Joanne Paul’s broader historical agenda (Priority: 3/5): Paul reflects on Canadian intellectual history, her own route into Tudor studies, and her next book on tyranny under Henry VIII, showing an interest in contingency, power, and resistance.

Key Arguments: More and Erasmus were united less by dogmatism than by a shared satirical temperament and Catholic humanism. Utopia should be read as deliberately enigmatic: satire is central, but it also presents a vision of a society built on more 'real' values than money or status. The modern tendency to read Utopia as dystopian often reflects post-Enlightenment individualism rather than More’s own priorities. More’s persecution of heretics is historically real and morally serious, but it was shaped by fear of social and religious breakdown rather than simple cruelty. Historical figures should not be sorted cleanly into heroes or villains; doing so obscures how contradiction and fear drive political action. Film and television often distort Tudor history by reversing moral roles or simplifying complex relationships into clear good-versus-evil narratives. The Tudor period saw major social mobility, but education remained essential; women were increasingly excluded as governance became more formalized. The scientific revolution emerged from Renaissance humanism and occult/mystical traditions as much as from any clean break with religion. Britain’s current stagnation, in Paul’s view, is tied to Brexit, underinvestment in higher education, and hostility toward expertise and immigration.

Data Points: Years between More and Erasmus meeting and later friendship: 1499 - They first met in 1499, along with Prince Henry who would become Henry VIII. Lord Chancellorship gap in correspondence: several years - No surviving letters are exchanged between More and Erasmus while More served as Lord Chancellor. Burnings overseen by More as Lord Chancellor: 3 cases - Paul says More oversaw three burnings at the stake of heretics during his tenure. Century of study: 16th century - Paul repeatedly situates More, the Reformation, education, and Tudor politics in the 1500s. Free grammar school attendance: the only free grammar school in London - More attended London’s only free grammar school as a child. Book and genre milestone: first book to use the word 'utopia' - Paul notes Utopia is the first book to use the term that became the genre’s name. Publication / historical span: 500 years - Utopia remains debated 500 years later because of its enduring ambiguity. Number of Tudor books under contract: 2 - Paul says she has two more books under contract.

Pivotal Quotes: "I think you should be interested in the contradictions." — Joanne Paul: Her response to whether More was simply a bad person or someone worth admiring. "I think utopia is intentionally enigmatic. I think it's a riddle." — Joanne Paul: Her interpretation of More’s Utopia as a deliberately ambiguous text. "He was afraid of what he would consider the Lutheran heresy." — Joanne Paul: Explaining the fear that underpinned More’s support for persecution.

Implications: The episode urges listeners to treat historical figures as complex actors shaped by fear, ideology, and institutions. It also shows how early modern debates about authority, faith, and social order still map onto today’s conflicts over polarization, expertise, and tyranny.