John Gray on the Seven Kinds of Atheism

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: John Gray argues that most modern atheism is not new, but a secularized inversion of Christianity that still inherits monotheistic assumptions, especially about morality and progress. He rejects the idea that science and technology automatically yield ethical or political progress, emphasizing instead recurring cycles of civilization, the return of old evils, and the need for a realistic, non-utopian atheism.

Main Topics: Critique of New Atheism (Priority: 5/5): Gray says Dawkins, Harris, and similar figures recycle 19th-century arguments and mistake religion for a set of theories rather than practices, myths, and forms of life. Religion as Practice, Myth, and Meaning (Priority: 5/5): He emphasizes that most religions are not creeds about world explanation; they are rituals, narratives, obligations, and meanings, with Buddhism and Judaism as key examples. Science, Technology, and the Limits of Progress (Priority: 5/5): Gray distinguishes scientific and technological advance from moral or political improvement, arguing that more knowledge and power can serve both constructive and destructive ends. Cyclical View of History (Priority: 4/5): He defends the older view that civilizations rise, peak, decay, and are replaced by barbarism, rejecting linear Enlightenment assumptions of inevitable improvement. Return of Old Evils (Priority: 5/5): Gray argues that torture, slavery, anti-Semitism, colonial brutality, and totalitarian ideas return in new forms rather than disappearing permanently. Morality Without God (Priority: 4/5): He contends that atheist morality is usually borrowed from the surrounding culture and often mirrors Christian or liberal assumptions, rather than being philosophically independent. A Better Model of Atheism (Priority: 4/5): Gray admires atheists like Joseph Conrad who reject both God and utopian progress, live with contingency, and value courage under limits rather than redemption through history.

Key Arguments: New atheism is not new; it repeats 19th-century anti-religious arguments in a less informed form. Religion is usually practice and myth, not a scientific theory competing with modern science. Many religions are 'atheist' in Gray's narrow sense because they lack a creator God (e.g., Buddhism, polytheism, much of Judaism). Scientific progress is real, but it does not imply moral, political, or civilizational progress. Human beings remain morally and psychologically similar over time; knowledge grows faster than wisdom. Bad ideas and practices do not vanish permanently; they reappear under updated names and euphemisms. Liberal morality is historically contingent, not universal morality itself; atheists often unconsciously inherit it. Civilizations and empires can advance materially and still collapse into barbarism. A good atheist, in Gray's view, does not need a surrogate religion of humanity or progress and instead accepts tragedy, limits, and contingency. Personal improvement is possible, but perfection is not; attempts to fully redesign the self or society are often destructive.

Data Points: Podcast date: September 17, 2018 - Introductory metadata for the episode Book title: The Seven Types of Atheism - John Gray's latest book discussed on the episode Time span of modern progress focus: Last 200-300 years - Russ Roberts notes this is the period that shapes modern beliefs about progress Historical horizon Gray urges listeners to consider: About 3,000 years - Gray argues for judging progress over a much longer civilizational timescale Torture example: Abu Ghraib, 2003-2004 - Used as evidence of the return of old evils in modern forms Collapse of Rome: Civilizational peak followed by decay - Gray uses Rome as a classic example of rise-and-fall history Belgians in Congo: About a fifth of the population perished - Gray cites the Belgian Congo as an example of colonial atrocity and collapse in human well-being Soviet repression: Began under Lenin, not only Stalin - Gray says repression began immediately after Bolshevik takeover China and neo-communist regimes: Referenced as ongoing examples - Used to show that communism's abuses were not isolated to Stalin or the past Britain's possible Corbyn government: 30% to 50% chance - Gray warns of a potential political return to socialist illusions Key historical turning point: Around 1720-1750 - Gray says older cyclical views dominated until roughly the 18th century Conrad's time at sea: Over 20 years - Gray describes Joseph Conrad's long seafaring life as central to his worldview Conrad's languages: Polish first, French second, English third - Used to highlight the difficulty and originality of Conrad's literary achievement Shalamov's camp survival: 15 years in the gulag; average lifespan about 3 years - Gray cites Varlam Shalamov to illustrate the extremity of camp life Postwar British rationing: Reduced deficiency diseases like rickets - Gray gives wartime rationing as an example of a policy that improved nutrition

Pivotal Quotes: "There is progress in science... But the human animal doesn't change very much." — John Gray: On distinguishing scientific advance from moral and political progress "There are no permanent victories in ethics and politics. None. Literally none." — John Gray: On the fragility of historical gains and the return of old ideas "You are an atheist if you don't need that idea of a creator God." — John Gray: Gray's definition of atheism as a negative, non-systematic stance

Implications: Listeners are urged to question linear narratives of progress, treat science and politics separately, and recognize how quickly old evils can return in modern language. Gray's view favors humility, historical memory, and a non-utopian atheism that accepts limits.