Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Michael Lewis and bankruptcy scholar Jonathan Lipson examine the largely overlooked FTX bankruptcy, arguing it may have been mishandled in ways that favored Sullivan & Cromwell, distorted the criminal case, and reduced transparency. Lipson says the lack of an examiner delayed scrutiny of conflicts, while FTX’s unusual asset pile and creditor recoveries may have obscured deeper process failures.
Main Topics: Why the FTX bankruptcy matters beyond Sam Bankman-Fried’s conviction (Priority: 5/5): Lipson argues the bankruptcy process affects creditors, public transparency, and even the fairness of the criminal case, not just the dramatic fraud trial. The missed opportunity to appoint an examiner (Priority: 5/5): Congress intended examiners to investigate suspicious bankruptcies, but judges and parties often resist them. Lipson says FTX was exactly the kind of case where one was needed. Sullivan & Cromwell’s role and possible conflicts (Priority: 5/5): The firm’s pre-bankruptcy regulatory work, post-collapse control, and massive billing created concerns that it was protecting its own interests while steering the case. Cooperation with prosecutors and the criminal case (Priority: 4/5): Lipson says company-controlled resources and analyses were used to support prosecutors against Bankman-Fried, raising questions about fairness and creditor interests. Why FTX’s asset situation is unusual (Priority: 4/5): Unlike many bankruptcies, FTX appears to have held enough valuable assets to repay customers, which may have encouraged a drawn-out, high-billing process instead of a quick reorganization. Reform ideas for bankruptcy oversight (Priority: 4/5): Lipson recommends more frequent use of examiners, closer judicial scrutiny of pre-bankruptcy law firm ties, and greater independence for the U.S. trustee system.
Key Arguments: The bankruptcy case matters because it determines whether millions of creditors are treated fairly and whether the process preserves public confidence in courts and prosecutors. FTX fit the historical pattern where an examiner should be appointed because the case resembled a freefall collapse like Enron or Lehman Brothers. Sullivan & Cromwell had meaningful pre-bankruptcy involvement with FTX, especially regulatory and transactional work, which could have created incentives to avoid scrutiny. According to Lipson, the firm appears to have panicked after learning of commingling and liquidity problems, then moved quickly to prosecutors and to consolidate control. The company’s bankruptcy resources were used at an unusually high level to assist the criminal prosecution, which Lipson says is hard to reconcile with creditor interests. John Ray and Sullivan & Cromwell controlled access to company information, while Bankman-Fried’s defense lacked comparable access to potentially exculpatory material. The Department of Justice has an internal tension here: the U.S. trustee wanted transparency, while federal prosecutors may have benefited from the company’s cooperation. FTX’s asset base was unusually valuable, meaning the case may have created incentives to delay or liquidate rather than restart the business as a going concern. The examiner’s eventual appointment is only a partial remedy because much of the alleged damage and concealment may already have occurred. Lipson’s broader reform view is that bankruptcy judges should be more skeptical of large law firms’ prior relationships with debtor companies and should rely on examiners more often.
Data Points: Sam Bankman-Fried conviction status: guilty of fraud and conspiracy - Referenced at the start as the criminal case backdrop to the bankruptcy discussion FTX creditor recovery outlook: likely to be paid in full - FTX lawyers announced creditors will likely recover everything owed Examiner appointment timeline: a couple of days ago - Lipson says an examiner had finally been appointed shortly before the interview Perceived support for prosecution: tens of millions of dollars - A Sullivan & Cromwell lawyer said the firm had done this much work in support of the prosecution and regulatory interactions Liquidation/reorganization asset value: billions of dollars - FTX was described as sitting on a large pile of assets in bankruptcy Rescue financing sought in collapse: 3 or 4 billion dollars - Lewis mentions Sam seeking outside rescue financing from Tron, Nomura, and others Chronology of key collapse date: November 8, 2022 - Lipson identifies this as the day Sullivan & Cromwell appears to have realized the seriousness of the commingling/liquidity problem Bankruptcy petition date/value date: November 11, 2022 - Deposits were dollarized at the petition date, when crypto values were lower Potential scope of creditor distributions: full recovery with interest - Lewis notes growing expectation that depositors may get all money back plus interest Corporate billing impact: hundreds of millions of dollars - Lewis asks whether Sullivan & Cromwell’s control of the bankruptcy could be worth this much in fees
Pivotal Quotes: "It is important because we're concerned about how the bankruptcy was run for the benefit of creditors and investors and so on." — Jonathan Lipson: Explaining why the bankruptcy process deserves attention separate from the criminal trial "I have never seen this level of support by a company in bankruptcy for the prosecution of its insiders at this level, this cost, this intensity." — Jonathan Lipson: Describing the unusual degree of company-backed assistance to prosecutors "We're here to help you in your efforts to rescue FTX however we can." — Andy Diederich (quoted by Lipson): Lipson cites this as evidence that the firm was still framing the crisis as a liquidity rescue while simultaneously moving toward prosecutors
Implications: The episode suggests FTX may become a landmark not just for crypto fraud, but for bankruptcy ethics, examiner use, and law-firm conflicts. It also raises broader concerns about whether bankruptcy can be used to shape criminal outcomes and hide institutional mistakes.
About Against the Rules
Michael Lewis’s best-selling book The Big Short is now 15 years old. The Oscar-winning movie based on it came out a decade ago. To mark the occasion, Lewis has narrated a new audiobook of The Big Short. Here on his podcast, he and co-host Lidia Jean Kott are thinking about the legacy of the book, the movie, and the financial crisis of 2008. Michael catches up with the director of the movie, Adam McKay, as well as some of the real-life characters depicted by the likes of Ryan Gosling, Steve Carell and Jeremy Strong. He also calls up journalists, economists, and historians to make sense of the 2008 financial crisis and to understand how it still affects the world today.