Episode Summary
Executive Summary: In a discussion recorded October 19, host Jacob Goldstein and reporter Lydia Jean recap the third week of Sam Bankman-Fried’s trial, with Michael Lewis reflecting on Nishad Singh’s testimony. They examine evidence about executives’ knowledge of FTX’s use of customer funds, General Counsel Can Sun’s account of the collapse, the prosecution’s fraud narrative, the defense’s credibility challenges, and incriminating public and private messages. The prosecution is nearly finished; attention turns to whether the defense will offer its own account.
Main Topics: Nishad Singh’s role, knowledge, and testimony: Michael Lewis characterizes Singh as earnest, bright, and inexperienced in finance when he joined Alameda at 21. He says Singh described serving as an emotional and organizational buffer between Sam Bankman-Fried, Gary Wang, and other staff. Lewis found it plausible that Singh did not grasp the risks to customer funds until late, while discussing how Singh’s code-writing could implicate him without his understanding its consequences. Automation and responsibility for misuse of customer funds: Lewis argues that code can create distance between an action and its human consequences: people may write or operate automated systems without fully understanding that they are moving money improperly. He contrasts this with older, more face-to-face financial dealings and considers how that abstraction may affect intent and accountability. Can Sun’s account of the FTX collapse: FTX General Counsel Can Sun testified that he believed customer funds were safe and separated, and that he did not know Alameda was using them. After withdrawals failed, he saw a balance sheet showing Alameda billions of dollars in debt to FTX. He said Bankman-Fried asked whether there was a legal explanation for the deficit; Sun concluded none was supported by the facts. Prosecution narrative and defense strategy: Jean says prosecutors have presented a clear story that Bankman-Fried repeatedly lied about customer funds being safe. The defense has mainly sought to cast doubt on witnesses, emphasizing that cooperating executives have plea or non-prosecution agreements and incentives to satisfy the government. The jury must decide guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Messages, tweets, and evidence of Bankman-Fried’s thinking: The trial featured Bankman-Fried’s public assurances that FTX was fine and customer accounts were segregated, as well as private DMs with Vox reporter Kelsey Piper. In the DMs, he dismissed some of his prior statements about ethical conduct as untrue and suggested that public perception often diverges from reality. Trial proceedings and what comes next: The prosecution was nearly done after Singh and other witnesses testified. Courtroom rules had tightened, and proceedings paused for a week while the judge attended a conference. The hosts anticipated the possibility that Bankman-Fried would testify and offer the defense’s account of FTX’s collapse.
Key Arguments: The prosecution’s central case, as described by Jean, is that Bankman-Fried repeatedly represented FTX customer funds as safe while they were not; prosecutors reinforced this through testimony and his own statements. Sun’s testimony was significant because he described being told customer assets were safe, then discovering a multibillion-dollar deficit and hearing Bankman-Fried seek a legal explanation that Sun said was not supported by the facts. The defense’s main approach is to challenge the credibility of cooperating witnesses by highlighting their plea or non-prosecution agreements and potential incentives, rather than offering a complete alternative narrative so far. Lewis interprets Singh’s messages as indicating concern that his code had been used to move money in ways he had not understood. He sees automated systems as creating moral and legal distance, though he distinguishes that from proving exactly what each person knew. Lewis and the hosts consider Bankman-Fried’s response to Singh’s request for public clarification potentially revealing, but note that the exchange does not by itself settle what Bankman-Fried knew or intended.
Data Points: Recording date: Thursday, October 19 - The host dates the episode during the third week of Bankman-Fried’s trial. Trial duration at the time of recording: Three weeks - Jean says she has attended court every day for three weeks. Singh’s age when he joined Alameda Research: 21 - Lewis describes Singh as very young and inexperienced in finance when he joined. Senior FTX executives discussed: Three - The conversation refers to three top FTX executives who testified after pleading guilty. Time prosecutors spent emphasizing Sun’s lack of knowledge: About 10–30 minutes - Jean estimates prosecutors repeatedly established that Sun did not know customer funds were being used by Alameda. Alameda deficit: Billions of dollars - Sun said the balance sheet he saw during FTX’s collapse showed Alameda owed FTX billions. Court recess: One week - The judge paused proceedings to attend a conference.
Pivotal Quotes: "I learned what the law is. It's not what's written, it's what people care to enforce." — Nishad Singh, as recalled by Michael Lewis: Lewis cites Singh’s description of becoming cynical about financial laws while working at Alameda. "There is no legal explanation that's supported by the facts." — Can Sun, as recounted by Lydia Jean: Sun said this was his response after Bankman-Fried asked whether there was a legal explanation for the deficit. "Everyone goes around pretending that perception reflects reality. It doesn't." — Sam Bankman-Fried, in a DM read on the show: The message to reporter Kelsey Piper was introduced as evidence of his private views on public perception and reputation.
Implications: The testimony and messages may help jurors assess what FTX leaders knew and when, but cooperating witnesses’ incentives remain a defense issue. The case also highlights how automated financial systems can obscure responsibility without eliminating the need to establish knowledge and intent.
About Against the Rules
Michael Lewis’s best-selling book The Big Short is now 15 years old. The Oscar-winning movie based on it came out a decade ago. To mark the occasion, Lewis has narrated a new audiobook of The Big Short. Here on his podcast, he and co-host Lidia Jean Kott are thinking about the legacy of the book, the movie, and the financial crisis of 2008. Michael catches up with the director of the movie, Adam McKay, as well as some of the real-life characters depicted by the likes of Ryan Gosling, Steve Carell and Jeremy Strong. He also calls up journalists, economists, and historians to make sense of the 2008 financial crisis and to understand how it still affects the world today.