Maeve Cohen on Rethinking Economics

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Russ Roberts interviews Maeve Cohen of Rethinking Economics about reforming economics education. They argue undergraduate economics is too narrow, too abstract, and insufficiently critical of assumptions, ignoring history, pluralism, and real-world complexity. The conversation explores curriculum reform, democratic access to economics, the role of the internet, and tensions between market dynamism, social norms, and government intervention.

Main Topics: Origins of Rethinking Economics (Priority: 5/5): Cohen explains that her post-2008 crisis experience as an economics student led her and others to form student groups demanding curriculum reform after noticing economics was taught as settled fact rather than as contested social science. Pluralism in economics education (Priority: 5/5): The organization promotes exposure to multiple schools of thought—post-Keynesian, feminist, ecological, Austrian, and mainstream—so students can compare assumptions, methods, and policy implications rather than memorize one orthodox framework. Democratizing economics (Priority: 5/5): Cohen argues economics is jargon-heavy and socially influential, creating democratic deficits when ordinary people cannot understand policy claims framed as 'economic.' Rethinking Economics also supports accessible public education through its sister charity Economy. Limits of current teaching methods (Priority: 4/5): Both speakers criticize textbook-driven, multiple-choice, high-enrollment instruction for encouraging rote learning rather than critical thinking, historical awareness, or understanding of complexity and context. Economics, human behavior, and complexity (Priority: 5/5): Roberts and Cohen agree that incentives matter and markets are useful, but reject the idea that supply-and-demand models fully capture real life. They discuss rational-agent models, emergent order, and the need to account for human relationships, environment, and non-quantifiable values. Markets, consumer choice, and social costs (Priority: 4/5): Using Walmart, Amazon, bookstores, and local retail as examples, they debate whether cheap goods conceal costs such as community loss, weakened local culture, and environmental damage, and whether norms or policy should respond. Power, ideology, and disagreement (Priority: 4/5): They conclude by comparing interventionist and libertarian instincts: Cohen emphasizes democratic control and corporate power; Roberts emphasizes limits on political power and fears capture. Both acknowledge that lived experience shapes their views.

Key Arguments: Economics is a social science, not a value-free physics-like discipline, so undergraduate teaching should include history, competing schools, and critical reflection on assumptions. The post-2008 financial crisis exposed the gap between real economic events and how economics was taught; many students wanted to study economics to improve society, but the curriculum often alienated them. Pluralism does not mean endorsing every theory; it means understanding why different frameworks produce different conclusions and gaining intellectual humility. Economics is overly inaccessible to the public, and this opacity can create democratic deficits because citizens vote on policies they do not fully understand. Multiple-choice exams and oversized lecture classes reward memorization and discourage the kind of conversation and reasoning that should be central to higher education. Mainstream models overemphasize measurable output, underweighting community, environment, lived experience, and other consequences that may not show up in prices. Market outcomes can improve material welfare while still imposing real but hidden social costs, such as the decline of small stores and changes in neighborhood life. Roberts and Cohen disagree about policy, but both see concentrations of power as dangerous; Roberts worries about state power and capture, while Cohen worries about corporate dominance and democratic accountability.

Data Points: Student groups in network: 53 groups - Cohen says Rethinking Economics has expanded to student groups campaigning for curriculum reform. Countries represented: 25 countries - Cohen describes the movement as international, with groups in many countries. University curriculum study sample: 7 universities - Rethinking Economics’ book The Econocracy examined curricula at seven UK universities. Pluralist reader schools of thought: 11 different schools of thought - The organization produced an introductory reader covering multiple traditions in economics. Staff size: 5 members of staff - Cohen explains the organization is a small campaigning group with limited capacity. Large introductory class size: 600 students - Cohen cites her Econ 101 course as an example of the difficulty of teaching critically at scale in the UK. Large lecture size at UCLA: 350 students - Roberts describes teaching principles of economics to a very large undergraduate class. Launch year of the movement on campus: 2012 - Cohen says she entered university in 2012, shortly after the financial crisis, and co-founded Post-Crash Economics. Time since Roberts’ PhD: 1981 - Roberts references his own graduate education and economic history requirements at Chicago.

Pivotal Quotes: "Economics was taught as this one way of thinking about economics as if it's fact, with no sort of critical analysis of anything that was happening." — Maeve Cohen: Cohen describes why she and other students founded a reform movement after the financial crisis. "It's not the only tool that you can use. And actually, in some circumstances and for some problems, it's really not useful at all." — Maeve Cohen: She explains pluralism as a practical, not merely ideological, case for using multiple economic frameworks. "We don't have a monopoly on the truth, whatever your value system is." — Russ Roberts: Roberts argues for humility and against one-model economics while discussing the purpose of pluralism.

Implications: The episode suggests economics education and public debate would benefit from more pluralism, history, and accessibility. It also warns that both markets and governments can produce hidden costs, so future policy and teaching should better reflect complexity and power.