Megan McArdle on Belonging, Home, and National Identity

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Russ Roberts and Megan McArdle discuss Roger Scruton’s Where We Are as a meditation on home, national identity, and belonging. They argue that nations endure through place-based loyalties, shared history, and accountability, but also wrestle with guilt, exclusion, and the loss of local ties. The conversation connects Brexit, the U.S. culture wars, immigration, religion’s decline, and the need for a common national story.

Main Topics: Somewheres vs. Anywheres (Priority: 5/5): The episode centers on David Goodhart’s distinction between rooted people who stay put and mobile cosmopolitans who move easily. Both speakers argue the divide helps explain Brexit and modern political conflict. National Identity and Democratic Legitimacy (Priority: 5/5): They emphasize Scruton’s claim that representative government feels legitimate because rulers are accountable to neighbors and fellow citizens, not distant bureaucracies. American Self-Understanding and Historical Memory (Priority: 5/5): They compare Britain’s ambivalence about empire to America’s split between pride and shame, warning that a nation cannot survive if it defines itself only by its sins. Belonging, Ethnicity, and Assimilation (Priority: 4/5): The discussion explores how immigrants and ethnic communities experience belonging, how assimilation changes identity, and why lost discrimination can also mean lost solidarity. Religion, Civil Society, and Social Capital (Priority: 4/5): They connect declining religion and weaker local institutions to a search for replacement identities, while noting Burkean and Tocquevillian voluntary associations still matter. Architecture, Place, and Preservation (Priority: 3/5): Scruton’s aesthetic argument about preserving the look of cities and countryside becomes a debate about whether top-down planning can protect national character and social capital. Crisis, Polarization, and the Future of Nations (Priority: 5/5): The conversation ends with concern that weakened shared identity fuels polarization, rhetorical civil war, and the erosion of a common national project.

Key Arguments: People need rooted attachments—family, place, language, neighborhood, and nation—more than abstract universalism allows. Brexit reflected a demand for control and accountability, not simply hostility to immigrants; many voters wanted decision-makers who felt local and knowable. Democratic legitimacy depends less on perfect policy than on the sense that power is answerable to citizens through elections. A nation that teaches only its crimes, or only its greatness, risks instability; healthy self-government requires a usable common story that includes both pride and repentance. Ethnic enclaves and discrimination historically created strong community bonds; reducing prejudice is morally right but can also thin out inherited identity. As religion, local media, and civic institutions decline, identity politics and nationalist backlashes become more salient because people still need belonging. Libertarianism, in McArdle’s view, is partly an American-national tradition and depends on a national context; pure individualism cannot replace social cohesion. Immigrants often assimilate into a dominant culture over time, but successful inclusion still requires some expectation of shared norms and obligations. The state and nation are not just service providers; people want a common enterprise that can ask sacrifices of them and still feel like “us.” The erosion of national confidence can make compromise harder and increase the risk of political fragmentation or civil conflict.

Data Points: Podcast date: December 13th, 2021 - Russ Roberts introduces the episode and guest. Megan McArdle’s EconTalk appearances: 6th appearance - Roberts notes this is her sixth time on the show. Book discussed: Where We Are - Roger Scruton’s book serves as the basis for the conversation. Historical time span mentioned: Archives going back to 2006 - Roberts mentions EconTalk’s archive history. British identity examples: Brexit vote; 2016; 2018 - The discussion repeatedly references Brexit, McArdle’s pre-vote travel, and later reporting trip in 2018. Immigrant-free vaccine cost example: $15 - McArdle argues even a small out-of-pocket vaccine price could reduce uptake. U.S. move to Israel: 5 months - Roberts says he and his wife had been in Israel for five months. American residence: 67 years - Roberts says he lived in America for 67 years before moving to Israel. Generational change in Boston: 1950s–1970s - McArdle references her family’s Boston experience and the busing era. Migration/identity example: Late 19th / early 20th century - Roberts describes his Jewish family’s immigration to America.

Pivotal Quotes: "there is no such thing as the pure universal brotherhood of man" — Megan McArdle: Her summary of Scruton’s resistance to abstract universalism and emphasis on particular loyalties. "those are your mates" — Russ Roberts quoting Mark Helprin / British seaman: Used to illustrate the moral logic of loyalty to one’s own people or community. "the nation should be understood" — Russ Roberts quoting Roger Scruton: Scruton’s definition of a nation as people sharing territory, language, institutions, customs, and history.

Implications: The episode suggests politics will keep fracturing unless societies rebuild shared narratives, local trust, and civic obligation. For listeners, the lesson is that belonging—not just policy—shapes legitimacy, compromise, and national resilience.