Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Barry Ritholtz interviews bestselling author Michael Lewis about his podcast 'Against the Rules,' which explores societal roles like referees and coaches. Lewis discusses how his high school baseball coach, Coach Fitz, transformed his life, the importance of data-driven responses to the COVID-19 pandemic, and the Trump administration's failure to manage federal agencies, as documented in his book 'The Fifth Risk.' The conversation highlights themes of fairness, coaching philosophies, and the need for competent governance.
Main Topics: Podcasting vs. Book Writing (Priority: 4/5): Lewis compares the emotional connection with podcast audiences to book readers, noting that audio creates a more intimate bond. He enjoys the collaborative, ensemble nature of podcast production, which contrasts with the solitary process of writing books. The Role of Coaches in Life (Priority: 5/5): Lewis explores how coaches like his high school baseball coach, Coach Fitz, can build new identities in young people by creating dramas of overcoming fear and failure. He contrasts this with the 'Inner Game' approach, which focuses on mental state and process over outcome. Government Mismanagement and The Fifth Risk (Priority: 5/5): Lewis discusses the Trump administration's neglect of federal agencies, particularly the failure to fill key positions and heed expert briefings. This left the country unprepared for crises like the COVID-19 pandemic, which demanded a coordinated, data-driven response. Data and the COVID-19 Pandemic (Priority: 4/5): Lewis criticizes the lack of data collection and analysis in the U.S. pandemic response, contrasting it with the advanced analytics used in sports. He highlights the potential of mobile phone data to track movement and predict disease spread. Writing as a Career (Priority: 3/5): Lewis advises aspiring writers to love the act of writing, not just the identity of being a writer. He suggests gaining life experience and avoiding over-planning, as learning through mistakes is valuable.
Key Arguments: Podcasting creates a more emotional, intimate connection with audiences than books, and the collaborative production process is enriching for the creator. Great coaches (like Coach Fitz) help build new identities by forcing individuals to confront and overcome fear and failure, while modern performance coaching focuses on mental state and process (e.g., Tim Gallway's 'Inner Game of Tennis'). The Trump administration's willful ignorance of expert briefings and failure to fill key government positions left the U.S. dangerously unprepared for a pandemic, as illustrated in Lewis's book 'The Fifth Risk.' The U.S. pandemic response suffered from a lack of data collection and analysis, despite the country's leadership in data science; mobile phone data can be a powerful tool for tracking movement and predicting outbreaks. Anti-lockdown protests are harmful because they undermine collective action, and the U.S. behaves like an 'uncoached team' without a unified strategy.
Data Points: Percentage of world population vs. infections: 5% of world population, 25% of infections - Lewis highlights the disproportionate impact of COVID-19 on the U.S. due to poor management. Number of political appointees in federal government: 4,000 - The federal government is run by 4,000 political appointees, many of whom were not appointed during the Trump administration. Sales of 'The Inner Game of Tennis': 2 million copies - The book unexpectedly became a bestseller and started a coaching revolution beyond tennis. Number of episodes produced for 'Against the Rules': 14 episodes (across two seasons) - Lewis and his team have completed 14 episodes, developing a strong collaborative dynamic.
Pivotal Quotes: "I felt like I spent my career as a weightlifter with only using my legs. And now someone has allowed me to lift with my arms." — Michael Lewis: Lewis describes how podcasting has allowed him to use new creative muscles, contrasting with book writing. "He says, 'Shove this up their ass.' And then he looks over at the guy on third base and goes, 'and then pick his ass off.' And so, and it's exactly what happened." — Michael Lewis: Lewis recounts how Coach Fitz gave him confidence in a high-pressure baseball moment, teaching him to overcome fear. "We are an uncoached team right now. We're a team where everybody wants the ball to shoot. We're a team where it does not play together. And it's a moment where we really need to act as a team and play together." — Michael Lewis: Lewis critiques the U.S. response to the pandemic, arguing for a coordinated national strategy.
Implications: The conversation underscores the critical need for competent, data-driven governance and the powerful role of coaching in personal development. For listeners, it highlights the value of process-oriented thinking and collaborative leadership, especially during crises. The podcast's exploration of societal roles may inspire deeper reflection on how we structure mentorship and public management.
About Masters in Business
Barry Ritholtz speaks with the people that shape markets, investing and business.