Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Russ Roberts and Richard Epstein discuss the U.S. kidney transplant system, arguing that severe shortages, long queues, and dialysis costs create avoidable suffering. Epstein defends legal organ markets, claiming they would raise supply, reduce wait times, save money, and likely attract charitable support, while addressing objections about exploitation, commodification, and regulation.
Main Topics: The current kidney transplant system and scarcity (Priority: 5/5): Epstein describes the organ allocation system as a complex queue with regional variation, long waits, many deaths, and growing backlogs, emphasizing how shortage harms patients. Dialysis as an imperfect and costly stopgap (Priority: 5/5): The conversation highlights dialysis as expensive, exhausting, and often intolerable, with many patients unable to sustain it long enough to receive a transplant. Kidney exchange and live-donor matching (Priority: 4/5): They explain paired kidney swaps that solve blood-type incompatibilities through simultaneous surgeries, showing how limited market-like mechanisms already improve outcomes. The case for a legal kidney market (Priority: 5/5): Epstein argues that allowing payment would increase supply, reduce queues, expand charitable funding, and lower system-wide costs while preserving voluntary choice. Ethical objections: vulnerability and commodification (Priority: 4/5): The discussion tackles concerns that markets exploit the poor or degrade human dignity, with Epstein countering that consent, screening, and self-selection address many risks. Policy comparisons and experimentation (Priority: 4/5): Epstein criticizes proposals that forbid experimentation and compares kidney markets to other regulated systems like gasoline or highways, arguing that shortages stem from price controls. Future alternatives: artificial organs and xenotransplants (Priority: 3/5): The episode closes by noting that artificial kidneys and pig-to-human transplants remain speculative, so near-term policy reform is more realistic than technological rescue.
Key Arguments: The kidney system produces persistent shortages, long waits, and preventable deaths, so the status quo is morally and economically costly. Dialysis is not a real substitute for transplantation; it is burdensome, expensive, and often intolerable for patients. Paired kidney exchanges demonstrate that organ transfer can be organized safely and effectively when incentives and logistics are aligned. A legal market would likely increase the supply of healthy kidneys and reduce demand for dialysis, generating major public savings. Charitable giving would not disappear in a market; it would likely expand through kidney funds and donor support for poorer recipients. Exploitation concerns can be mitigated through screening, donor education, income safeguards, and medical testing comparable to existing donor standards. Commodification does not necessarily reduce respect for persons; voluntary exchange typically requires consent and can coexist with empathy and social concern. Opponents’ refusal to allow experimentation blocks learning about whether safer, fairer organ markets could work.
Data Points: Average kidney transplant wait time: 4 years - Epstein says the average recipient waits about four years for a kidney. Deaths on the kidney waiting list per day: 18 people/day - He cites average daily deaths among people on the kidney list. Waiting list growth per year: 5,000–6,000 people/year - Epstein says the queue is growing annually by several thousand. Annual kidney transplants: about 14,000 per year - He estimates total U.S. kidney transplants annually. Cadaveric transplants share: a little more than half - More than half of transplants come from deceased donors. Live-donor/swap share: 40%–45% - He estimates the share from living donors, including swap arrangements. Dialysis time burden: 30 hours/week or 3–4 sessions/week - He describes the weekly burden of dialysis. Dialysis cost: $100,000 per year - Epstein gives a rough annual cost for dialysis treatment. Kidney program spending: $10–15 billion - He references the large public cost of the renal disease program. Current waiting list size: 94,000 people - He gives the size of the kidney waiting list. Estimated donor risk of death: 3 in 10,000 - Epstein cites the death rate for live kidney donors. Potential economic value of life-year: $100,000–$250,000 per year - He invokes a hedonic/value-of-life estimate to argue that transplants create large benefits.
Pivotal Quotes: "It's a pretty gruesome fate." — Richard Epstein: He is describing dialysis as the fallback for many kidney patients. "The first question you have to ask is do you do it sequentially... So the way they solved this problem is they quite literally put people under the knife simultaneously" — Richard Epstein: He explains how paired kidney exchanges avoid reneging by doing simultaneous surgeries. "The argument that you are making could be as follows. Normally, any voluntary exchange between two parties improves their joint welfare and presumptively ought to be respected." — Russ Roberts: Roberts frames the liberty case for allowing voluntary kidney transactions.
Implications: The episode argues that kidney policy should prioritize experimentation and incentives over taboo. If markets or expanded exchanges were legal, shortages, deaths, and dialysis dependence could fall sharply, while philanthropy and oversight could still protect vulnerable donors.
About EconTalk
EconTalk: Conversations for the Curious is an award-winning weekly podcast hosted by Russ Roberts of Shalem College in Jerusalem and Stanford's Hoover Institution. The eclectic guest list includes authors, doctors, psychologists, historians, philosophers, economists, and more. Learn how the health care system really works, the serenity that comes from humility, the challenge of interpreting data, how potato chips are made, what it's like to run an upscale Manhattan restaurant, what caused the...