Steve Aoki on why he’s a ‘crypto believer’

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Neal Patel interviews Steve Aoki about how music, investing, and Web3 intersect in his career. Aoki explains that touring remains his main income source, while NFTs and the Aoki Verse are an extension of his long-standing strategy of building community, scarcity, and experiential value around art. The conversation probes business models, tokenized memberships, climate concerns, and whether music is becoming marketing for higher-value digital assets.

Main Topics: Aoki’s career as artist, investor, and entrepreneur: Aoki describes a diversified business built on touring, restaurants, private investing, art, crypto, and collectibles. He frames himself as both a creator and an investor who prioritizes passion but relies on teams for financial discipline. How musicians actually make money: He argues streaming pays too little for most artists and says live performance is the overwhelming share of his income. Syncs, publishing, and masters can help, but touring is the dominant business driver. NFTs as community, scarcity, and experiential art: Aoki contends NFTs are not just JPEGs but collectible, tradable assets that can add scarcity and utility to music and art. He sees them as a better fit for fan engagement and direct monetization than traditional streaming. The Aoki Verse membership model: He explains the Aoki Verse as a token-gated social club that combines Web2, Web3, and IRL perks, including passport levels, exclusive events, merch drops, and even a chance to collaborate in the studio. Decision-making, time management, and longevity: Aoki says his decisions balance passion, economics, and trusted teams, with a focus on long-term commitments rather than exits. He also describes touring as a logistical and mental-athletic challenge requiring discipline and scheduling. Blockchain tradeoffs: community upside vs. climate and decentralization concerns: Patel pushes on energy use, speculation, and whether blockchain is necessary. Aoki acknowledges climate concerns and says the space may need more efficient infrastructure, while defending token ownership and resaleability as Web3’s key difference. Art versus financialization: The interview ends on whether NFTs risk turning culture into a market-first product. Aoki argues the music still exists and the market and artist should decide, while Patel worries incentives may shift attention away from music itself.

Key Arguments: Touring is the core of Aoki’s income because streaming pays too little for most artists to live on. NFTs and tokens create a way to collect, trade, and experience music and art, adding scarcity that traditional digital music lacks. The Aoki Verse is designed as a community with real utility, not just speculation: events, merch, passports, and studio access. Long-term thinking matters more than short-term gains; he invests in things he believes will still matter years later. Web3’s main value is ownership and resaleability; unlike Web2 memberships, tokenized memberships can be sold and upgraded. Environmental concerns are real, and the blockchain infrastructure may need to evolve or migrate to more efficient networks. Music may become the free/ubiquitous layer, while NFTs and memberships become the monetized layer around it.

Data Points: Years running Dim Mak: 27 years - Aoki says he has run his label since 1996. Show count in one year: 361 days - Patel cites a year when Aoki toured almost every day. Typical annual shows: Over 200 shows per year - Aoki says he never fell under 200 shows annually for 15 years. Highest touring intensity: 5 countries in 40 hours - Aoki describes an extreme travel/run of performances and minimal sleep. NFT community size: About 2,000 to 3,000 members - Aoki estimates current Aoki Verse membership size. Aoki credits supply: 30,000 credits - He explains the initial ERC-1155 credits used to level up passports. Passport levels: 6 levels - Aoki Verse passport progression system with increasing utility. Level 1 burn requirement: 1 credit - Aoki explains passport leveling mechanics. Level 2 burn requirement: 4 credits - Passport leveling mechanic. Level 3 burn requirement: 16 credits - Passport leveling mechanic. Level 4 burn requirement: 64 credits - Passport leveling mechanic. Level 5 burn requirement: 256 credits - Passport leveling mechanic. Level 6 burn requirement: 1,000+ credits - Aoki says level six requires a thousand-something credits. Streaming payout: A fraction of a penny per stream - Aoki and Patel discuss how little streaming pays artists. Clubs/communities partnered at launch: 24 communities - Aoki says the Aoki Verse launch included multiple NFT communities. Venue capacity example: 20,000 - Gala Games event at The Forum as an example of token-gated exclusivity. Exclusive event attendance example: 200-300 people - Aoki cites an exclusive community show at a 20,000-cap venue.

Pivotal Quotes: "I am a bag holder." — Steve Aoki: He describes his tendency to hold investments and art rather than sell quickly. "If I'm going to put my hands on it, it's like, that's what the differences between... investing into a coin versus NFT because the backend of the technology is similar, but the front end is really important." — Steve Aoki: He explains why NFTs matter to him beyond pure financial speculation. "Music is meant to be at this point, the way we view music is meant to be free and heard." — Steve Aoki: He argues that NFTs and memberships monetize the ecosystem around music, not necessarily the listening itself.

Implications: The interview frames NFTs and tokenized communities as a possible new business layer for music, where ownership and access become monetizable while songs stay widely available. It also highlights the unresolved tension between innovation, speculation, and environmental cost.