The Human Side of the AI Underclass w/ Joanne McNeil

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Joanne McNeil discusses her debut novel Wrong Way, which uses self-driving cars and gig labor to explore tech hype, hidden human labor, class, and inequality. She reflects on her path from fiction to tech criticism, the changing science fiction landscape, and why fair criticism requires deeply understanding what companies claim to do versus what they actually do.

Main Topics: From fiction to tech criticism and back (Priority: 5/5): McNeil explains how she moved from early sci-fi writing to blogging and tech criticism, then returned to fiction with a novel shaped by years of reporting on tech. The making of Wrong Way (Priority: 5/5): She describes how the novel emerged from a 2018 idea about self-driving cars and grew into a satirical but grounded story about a fraudulent AV company and its labor model. Science fiction, prestige, and publishing (Priority: 4/5): McNeil contrasts a more diverse contemporary sci-fi field with a growing culture of prestige that can intensify elitism and class barriers in literature. Hidden labor behind automation (Priority: 5/5): The conversation emphasizes how self-driving cars, AI, and platform systems depend on underpaid human workers who are kept out of sight. Tech hype, criticism, and public attention (Priority: 5/5): McNeil and Marks argue that the techlash has faded, major tech companies have re-normalized, and critics must keep exposing the gap between marketing and reality. Class, midlife precarity, and representation (Priority: 4/5): The novel’s protagonist and related discussion center working-class life, midlife insecurity, and the lack of realistic depictions of ordinary people in culture. What fair criticism looks like (Priority: 4/5): McNeil says criticism should be generous, accurate, and based on truly engaging with a company’s ideas rather than shallow dismissal.

Key Arguments: McNeil’s route back to fiction came from having long written fiction earlier in life, then shifting to blogging and criticism when fiction communities felt unwelcoming and difficult to access. The sci-fi field is more diverse than in the 2000s, with more women, women of color, and trans writers achieving success and recognition. At the same time, science fiction has become more prestigious and therefore more elitist, making class and educational pedigree more powerful gatekeepers. Publishing and the arts still devalue working-class writers, even though many readers outside elite circles want art that reflects their lives. Wrong Way is designed as satire that feels absurd but plausible, showing how a self-driving-car company can use progressive language and anti-hierarchical branding to mask exploitation. The book reflects McNeil’s view that automation does not eliminate labor; it redistributes the hardest, least respected work onto invisible humans. Tech criticism must be grounded in close reading of what companies say and do; merely saying a startup is bad is not enough. The current tech moment has normalized companies like Facebook again, showing that public outrage can be exhausted and rebranded away. Class dynamics are central to AV enthusiasm: billionaires may prefer the prestige of “driverless” innovation, but they still rely on servants, operators, and workers. McNeil wants readers to see the protagonist as a full human being rather than a caricature of poverty or a symbolic lesson in working-class life.

Data Points: Years since show launch referenced by host: 3.5 years - Paris notes it has been about three and a half years since the podcast began. Time since McNeil was an early guest: 4 years - The host says McNeil was one of the show’s first guests in 2020. Novel publication schedule: 2016 book deal; novel released in 2024 context - McNeil says she got the book deal for Lurking in 2016 and started the novel immediately after finishing that book. Short-story writing goal: 1 short story per year - She set a goal to publish at least one short story annually to keep up her fiction practice. Self-driving car idea origin: 2018 - McNeil says the idea for a self-driving-car novel came to her in 2018. Book length: 70,000 words - McNeil says readers spend about 70,000 words with the novel. Page count referenced by host: 270 pages - Paris describes spending 270 pages with the book. Company labor ratio mentioned: 1.5 remote drivers per vehicle - Paris cites reporting on Cruise in San Francisco showing roughly 1.5 remote drivers per vehicle. Remote-driving demo condition: Rain in Phoenix - McNeil says every Waymo she booked in Phoenix during rain was driven by remote operators. Working-age group in AV work: 40s and up - McNeil notes Uber drivers tend to be in their 40s or older, while passengers skew much younger.

Pivotal Quotes: "if you state someone's ideas fairly, and engage with their ideas, if you put in the effort, if you're generous enough to understand what someone is actually trying to say or do, and you disagree with that, you're criticizing fairly." — Joanne McNeil: McNeil explains her philosophy of criticism and how she approaches tech and film writing. "Prestige is elitism. Prestige is how people decide whether you're worth something or not based on looking at you based on, did you go to a good school?" — Joanne McNeil: She argues that the rise of prestige in science fiction and publishing reinforces class barriers. "if you spend that effort to actually see what it is, and not just like knee jerk, well, you know, it's, it's another startup, it's, it's got to be garbage." — Joanne McNeil: McNeil describes how fair tech criticism requires serious engagement rather than reflexive dismissal.

Implications: The episode argues that tech hype survives by hiding labor and exhausting critics, so future accountability depends on persistent, precise criticism and broader support for artists and writers outside elite pipelines.