Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Orlando Figes argues that Russia’s war on Ukraine is rooted in competing historical myths, especially over Crimea, Kievan Rus, and the meaning of Russian statehood. He explains how Putin uses history, religion, and imperial memory to legitimize power, why Crimea is central to Russian identity, and why the West has often misread Russia’s political culture and likely post-Putin trajectory.
Main Topics: History as Russia’s political language (Priority: 5/5): Figes says Russia lacks a robust liberal political discourse, so rulers use historical interpretation to define ideology, legitimacy, and national purpose. Competing myths over Ukraine and Crimea (Priority: 5/5): He contrasts Russian and Ukrainian origin stories, arguing that both sides anchor identity in Kievan Rus and Crimea, making the territory symbolically explosive. Putin’s use of religion and imperial memory (Priority: 5/5): The discussion covers the Russian Orthodox Church, sacred power, and how Putin’s worldview echoes Byzantine, Slavophile, and autocratic traditions. Why the West misreads Russia (Priority: 4/5): Figes argues Western observers overrely on the Russian intelligentsia, overlook religion and autocracy, and project liberal assumptions onto Russia. Ukraine’s national consolidation and the war’s escalation (Priority: 5/5): He says Putin’s invasion has strengthened Ukrainian identity and made compromise over Crimea and Donbas far harder, increasing escalation risks. Russia after Putin (Priority: 4/5): Figes doubts that Putin’s departure would bring liberalization or peace, warning a harder-line nationalist successor may emerge if the war continues.
Key Arguments: Putin’s war is best understood as a conflict over historical legitimacy, not just territory or strategy. Crimea matters because Russian state mythology ties it to Christianity, empire, access to the Black Sea, and European identity. Ukraine’s modern nationhood strengthened sharply after 2014 and especially after the 2022 invasion. Russian history is mobilized by the state because it substitutes for normal political debate and ideological pluralism. The Russian Orthodox Church is not separate from the state in the way Western observers assume; it helps sacralize power. The Mongol occupation left a deep imprint on Russian statehood, centralization, and patrimonial power relations. Western hopes for a simple transition to liberal democracy in Russia are unrealistic given its political and economic structure. If Crimea were militarily retaken by Ukraine, Figes thinks Putin might consider tactical nuclear escalation. A post-Putin Russia would likely produce another hardline nationalist rather than an immediate peace-seeking reformer.
Data Points: Book writing timeline: Delivered in November of the previous year; last chapter rewritten up to the cut-off point of 20 April - Figes describes when he wrote and updated The Story of Russia. Invasion start date referenced: 2014 - Figes says the conflict effectively began with the annexation of Crimea and related developments, not only in February 2022. Essay date: July 2021 - Putin’s essay on the “historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians” is cited as an ominous precursor to war. Russian history teaching experience: 35 years - Figes says he has taught Russian history for decades and saw the need for a book on historical myths and ideas. Mongol occupation duration: About 250 years - Used to explain how Mongol rule shaped Russian political culture and state power. Kievan Rus collapse: 1240 - The Mongol conquest ended Kievan Rus as a political center and redirected the histories of Russia and Ukraine. Fall of Constantinople: 1453 - Cited as a foundation for the “Third Rome” idea, with Moscow as the last true seat of Orthodoxy. Crimean War defeat: Mid-1850s - Used to situate late 19th-century Slavophile anti-Western thought. Russian Revolution / civil-war democratic alternative: 1917 - Figes suggests a different democratic path might have been possible through Soviets and a Constituent Assembly. Soviet Union breakup: 1991 - Modern border disputes and Russian claims over “historic lands” are traced to the collapse of the USSR. Current book launch context: Monday, October 10 - Josh Glancy notes the conversation was recorded on this date in central London.
Pivotal Quotes: "“history takes the place of normal political discourse”" — Orlando Figes: Explaining why historical myth-making is so central to Russian state ideology. "“it’s an attack on the Russian soul”" — Orlando Figes: Describing how Putin would perceive a Ukrainian move on Crimea. "“boy has he made them into one by invading them again”" — Orlando Figes: On how Putin has strengthened Ukrainian national identity.
Implications: The episode suggests the war is rooted in deep historical narratives, making compromise over territory especially difficult. It also warns that Western policy must account for Russian state culture, not just military or diplomatic logic.