Episode Summary
Executive Summary: The episode reviews Michael Lewis’s Liars Poker as a vivid exposé of Solomon Brothers’ 1980s Wall Street culture: bluffing, ego, stress tests, and intense competition. The hosts explain how the firm made money in bond brokering and trading, debate trader compensation versus value created, and warn listeners how deeply a workplace culture can shape behavior. They also discuss international investing for smaller-country investors.
Main Topics: Liars Poker and Solomon Brothers culture: The hosts frame the book as a fast-paced, entertaining look at the aggressive, bluff-heavy culture at Solomon Brothers in the 1980s, with Michael Lewis recounting his own experience there. How Solomon Brothers made money: Stig breaks down the firm's revenue sources: brokerage commissions, off-screen bond matching, and proprietary/client trading on bond prices and interest rates. Wall Street interview and stress culture: They highlight the bizarre stress interview tactics used to screen candidates, such as sealed-window tests and deliberate silence, as a way to probe reactions under pressure. Compensation versus value creation: Preston and Stig debate whether traders who generate large profits deserve large pay, concluding that replaceability and real economic value matter more than raw revenue produced. Culture shapes behavior: Both hosts argue that long exposure to a high-pressure culture can reshape an individual's morals, ego, and expectations, even if they start with strong personal values. International investing for smaller markets: In response to a listener question, they discuss why investors in smaller countries may prefer U.S. markets for diversification and information quality, while noting currency and fee drawbacks.
Key Arguments: Solomon Brothers’ trading culture was built on bluffing, ego, and relentless pressure, making the book a warning for anyone considering Wall Street. The firm made money through brokerage fees, off-screen matching of buyers and sellers, and trading bonds based on interest-rate expectations. The interview process was designed to test stress tolerance and personality rather than just competence. A trader who generates $20 million in profits is not automatically worth millions in compensation if the role is replaceable and adds little unique value. Workplace culture can normalize behavior and distort incentives, so people should be careful about the environment they join. For investors in small countries, local markets may be too narrow for diversification, making larger international markets—especially the U.S.—more attractive despite higher costs and currency risk.
Data Points: Episode number: 67 - This is episode sixty seven of The Investors Podcast. Book discussed: Liars Poker - The main book reviewed in the episode. Author: Michael Lewis - Author of Liars Poker and several later finance books. Solomon Brothers tenure described: about 5 years - Hosts estimate Lewis worked there for roughly five years. Book publication year: 1989 - Stig notes the book was from 89. Trader starting salary mentioned: $42,000 - Stig references Lewis’s early compensation. Initial trainee salary mentioned: $60,000 - Stig describes his own post-graduation offer. Compensation increase mentioned: $100,000 more - Stig says he was later offered about 100K more in bonus/compensation. Stig’s total pay mentioned: about $160,000 annually - He recalls making this amount as a young trader. Ask for raise: $40,000 more - Stig says he asked his boss for an additional 40K. Profits generated by one trader: $20 million+ - Used in the compensation discussion about a top trader's contribution. Trader pay cited: $90,000 first year - Preston cites a trader making 20M for the firm but receiving limited pay. Trader pay cited: $175,000 second year - Preston continues the compensation example. Company value created: $10 million for the company - Preston says Lewis reached this level within a couple of years. Lewis’s pay range: $80,000 to $150,000 - Preston estimates his compensation while he was generating major profits. Lewis’s later salary: $400,000 to $500,000 - Preston says his salary rose substantially as he advanced. Meeting timing: late April 2016 - Audience invitation to the Berkshire shareholders meeting. Listener question location: Bucharest, Romania - Julian’s question about investing in local versus international markets. Alternative book referenced: Global Value by Meb Faber - Recommended for international value investing. Trade interview behavior: one candidate tried to break a window with a chair - Used as an example of stress-testing candidates.
Pivotal Quotes: "It’s a lie, just like liars’ poker." — Stig Broderson: On the Wall Street norm of claiming passion for trading rather than admitting money is the motive. "If you want to go work on Wall Street and you really want to dive into finance, I would say this is a mandatory read for people." — Preston Pisch: Preston recommends the book as essential for prospective traders. "I'm going to do the hard work up front. I'm going to send these people off to Harvard for free." — Preston Pisch: In the debate over compensation, Preston suggests investing in talent with long-term contracts.
Implications: Listeners get a cautionary look at Wall Street’s incentive structures and culture, plus a practical reminder to judge compensation by replaceability and real value. The episode also encourages investors in small markets to think globally.
From the Episode
Heard the book was that Michael Lewis said, apparently, that is the golden answer you can provide on Wall Street. You can never ever say you're doing the job because of money. You have to say that you're doing it because you just love making good trades, even though everyone knows that it's just a lie. It's a lie, just like liars' poker. Now, that's an interesting point. I think that's a good highlight as well, Stig. What else? Did you have any other ones, Stig? Yeah, well, I think I want to talk about the conversation as well. And first of all, I actually like to ask you a question. Question, Preston, because one dilemma that he raises is that Solomon Brothers actually lost a lot of talent because they weren't willing to compensate the employees compared to other Wall Street companies. So he was talking about the best trader they had. He was making like $20 million plus like both years he was there. And like his cut of that was, I think it was something like $90,000 the first year, which was like a salary cap, and then $175,000 the second year. And my
Or interesting, I guess. I mean, for me, whenever I hear this stuff, I just think that's just stupid. You know, that's just absolutely stupid. That's my personal opinion. I don't live in a culture like that. I can promise you that. Well, that's not value investing, Preston, for sure. It's amazing to hear some of these stories, and I think some of it will just blow people's mind. And I'll tell you this: this is the one thing I want people to take away from this book. If you want to go work on Wall Street and you really want to dive into finance, And become a traitor. I would say this is a mandatory read for people. Absolutely mandatory read. You have to read this before you would dive into that culture. Because for me, if I read this as a college student or whatever, there is no way in a million years I would inject myself into that kind of culture. There's just no way. I have this firm opinion that when you put yourself in a certain culture, regardless of how moral or how strong you are as an individual.
Somewhere else, the thing that you have to ask yourself then is, how do you basically retain this talent up front? This would be the model that I would go to if I was one of the CEOs in this industry. I would say, I'm going to do the hard work up front. I'm going to send these people off to Harvard for free. I'm going to send these people to wherever, and I'm going to pay for it up front. But what I'm going to get in return is a contract that goes out to five, 10 years where they have to stay within the business with an automatic price model. Set. Now, where you're assuming a lot of risk as the CEO and the owner of the business is you might get a total turd that you're paying for to try to retain, and you don't know that model yet. So, that's where these guys really have a tricky is: I'm thinking through the thought process that sticks through me on the hot seat there to figure this out. That's my thought process as I'm going through this because it wasn't something that we had prepared, or I knew that he was going to ask me that. So, that's my thought process as I'm thinking through this. And it's a very hard thing because, let's say you bring, say, you don't want to do that model.
About We Study Billionaires
We interview and study famous financial billionaires, including Warren Buffett, Ray Dalio, and Howard Marks, and teach you what we learn and how you can apply their investment strategies in the stock market. We Study Billionaires is the largest stock investing podcast show in the world with 180,000,000+ downloads and is hosted by Stig Brodersen, Preston Pysh, William Green, Clay Finck, and Kyle Grieve. This podcast also includes the Richer Wiser Happier series hosted by best-selling author Wi...