The Huberman Lab
The Huberman Lab

Tools to Reduce & Manage Pain | Dr. Sean Mackey

In this episode, my guest is Dr. Sean Mackey, M.D., Ph.D., Chief of the Division of Pain Medicine and Professor of Anesthesiology, Perioperative and Pain Medicine and Neurology at Stanford University School of Medicine. His clinical and research efforts focus on using advanced neurosciences, patient

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Executive Summary: Dr. Sean Mackey explains pain as a subjective sensory-emotional brain-body experience, not a simple one-to-one signal from injury. The discussion covers pain pathways, chronic pain, safe use of medications, heat/cold, psychological and behavioral tools, nutrition, opioids, cannabis, acupuncture, chiropractic, and the importance of distinguishing hurt from harm.

Main Topics: What pain is and how the brain creates it (Priority: 5/5): Pain is framed as a complex, individual sensory and emotional experience arising from nociceptive input plus brain interpretation, not a single pain center. Acute pain, inflammation, and medication use (Priority: 5/5): NSAIDs, acetaminophen, aspirin, and COX pathways are discussed in terms of reducing inflammation, hyperalgesia, and balancing pain relief against healing. Mechanical and sensory modulation of pain (Priority: 4/5): Rubbing, shaking, kissing, TENS, heat, and cold can reduce pain by engaging spinal and descending inhibitory circuits rather than simply changing the local injury. Chronic pain, psychology, and cognition (Priority: 5/5): Distraction, mindfulness, CBT, pacing, anxiety, anger, catastrophizing, and early life stress all shape pain perception and chronic pain outcomes. Visceral, referred, and neuropathic pain (Priority: 4/5): The episode explains how gut, pelvic, heart, and nerve pain can be diffuse or referred, and why pain may appear in regions distant from the source. Opioids, kratom, cannabis, and the crisis (Priority: 5/5): Opioids are presented as useful in select cases but risky and often overprescribed historically; kratom and cannabis remain promising but under-researched and variable. Multimodal care and the future of pain medicine (Priority: 4/5): Best outcomes come from combining medications, procedures, physical therapy, psychology, education, nutraceuticals, and better data systems like the National Pain Strategy.

Key Arguments: Pain is not a direct readout of tissue damage; it is constructed by the brain from sensory input, context, memory, emotion, and expectation. There is no single pain center in the brain; pain is represented by distributed networks involving regions such as the insula, cingulate cortex, amygdala, and brainstem circuits. NSAIDs reduce inflammation and sensitization, but because inflammation also supports healing, they should be used at the lowest effective dose and with attention to GI, kidney, heart, and bleeding risks. Acetaminophen is more centrally acting and gentler on the stomach, but liver safety and dose limits matter. Pain can be reduced by activating touch fibers and descending inhibitory pathways through rubbing, shaking, TENS, heat, cold, and even social touch like kissing. Pain thresholds vary by individual and are influenced by anxiety, beliefs, prior experiences, stress, and context; sex differences exist on average but overlap heavily at the individual level. Chronic pain is best treated by addressing the whole person, not just the painful body part, using education, psychology, physical therapy, medications, and sometimes procedures. Hurt versus harm is a crucial distinction: pain does not always mean tissue damage, and understanding that can reduce fear and disability. Opioids can be life-changing for some patients, especially in end-of-life or select chronic pain cases, but they carry major addiction and overdose risks and should not be first-line. The current opioid death crisis is driven largely by illicit fentanyl rather than appropriately prescribed opioids, and abrupt discontinuation of prescribed opioids can push patients toward dangerous alternatives. Kratom and cannabis may help some people, but product variability, polysubstance use, and limited evidence make them difficult to recommend broadly. The best future for pain care is multimodal, personalized, and data-driven, with broader implementation of the National Pain Strategy and better access to high-quality care.

Data Points: Americans living with chronic pain: about 100 million - Mackey cites the scale of chronic pain in the U.S. Annual medical expenses from chronic pain: about a half trillion dollars - Used to emphasize the societal burden of chronic pain. Pain education in medical school: about 7 hours - Mackey contrasts physician training with the complexity of pain care. Pain education in veterinary school: about 40 hours - Used to illustrate how little physicians are trained in pain management. Baby aspirin dose: 81 mg/day - Discussed as an antiplatelet dose, distinct from anti-inflammatory dosing. Anti-inflammatory aspirin dose: about 325 mg - Higher doses shift aspirin toward anti-inflammatory effects. Tylenol/acetaminophen daily ceiling: 4,000 mg/day (4 g/day) - Presented as a general upper limit for people with good liver function. Ibuprofen frequency: up to 3 times/day - Mentioned as typical dosing due to short half-life. Naproxen frequency: 2 times/day - Mentioned as typical dosing due to longer half-life. Pain psychology intervention length: 8 weeks of CBT compressed into 2 hours - Describes the brief intervention 'Empowered Relief'. Pain management categories: 6 broad categories - Medications, procedures, psychology, PT/OT, complementary approaches, and self-empowerment. Physicians in the U.S.: about 1 million - Used in the discussion of physician behavior during the opioid crisis. Pain physicians in the U.S.: 5,000 to 10,000 - Estimate given for subspecialty-trained pain physicians. Opioid-related deaths: mostly driven by illicit fentanyls - Mackey argues the current crisis is primarily from street fentanyl, not prescribed opioids.

Pivotal Quotes: "Pain is this complex and subjective experience that serves a crucial role for all of us to keep us away from injury or harm." — Dr. Sean Mackey: Opening definition of pain and its protective function. "There is no one pain brain area. It is thought to be more of a distributed network of different brain systems." — Dr. Sean Mackey: Explaining why pain cannot be localized to a single brain center. "I am not pro-opioid. I am not anti-opioid. I am pro-patient." — Dr. Sean Mackey: Summarizing his clinical stance on opioid use.

Implications: Listeners should treat pain as a brain-body signal requiring context, not just suppression. The future of pain care is personalized, multimodal, and education-driven, with better access, safer prescribing, and more research on nontraditional therapies.

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About The Huberman Lab

The Huberman Lab podcast is hosted by Andrew Huberman, Ph.D., a neuroscientist and tenured professor in the department of neurobiology, and by courtesy, psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Stanford School of Medicine. The podcast discusses neuroscience and science-based tools, including how our brain and its connections with the organs of our body control our perceptions, our behaviors, and our health, as well as existing and emerging tools for measuring and changing how our nervous system works. Huberman has made numerous significant contributions to the fields of brain development, brain function, and neural plasticity, which is the ability of our nervous system to rewire and learn new behaviors, skills, and cognitive functioning. He is a McKnight Foundation and Pew Foundation Fellow and was awarded the Cogan Award, given to the scientist making the most significant discoveries in the study of vision, in 2017. Work from the Huberman Laboratory at Stanford School of Medicine has been published in top journals, including Nature, Science, and Cell, and has been featured in TIME, BBC, Scientific American, Discover, and other top media outlets. In 2021, Dr. Huberman launched the Huberman Lab podcast. The podcast is frequently ranked in the top 10 of all podcasts globally and is often ranked #1 in the categories of Science, Education, and Health & Fitness.

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