Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Sam Harris interviews Ben Lamm about Colossal Biosciences, a company aiming to resurrect extinct species and use the same tooling to advance conservation and human health. Lamm explains why de-extinction is scientifically plausible now, how Colossal uses comparative genomics, CRISPR-like multiplex editing, and AI, and why the project is framed as “reverse Jurassic Park” rather than sci-fi spectacle.
Main Topics: Ben Lamm’s path to de-extinction (Priority: 4/5): Lamm describes a career driven by systems thinking and curiosity across gaming, conversational software, satellite/defense software, and then synthetic biology after meeting George Church. Colossal’s mission and business model (Priority: 5/5): The company is positioned as the first de-extinction and species-preservation company, aiming to restore extinct animals while creating technologies usable for conservation and healthcare. Why mammoth, thylacine, and dodo were chosen (Priority: 4/5): Colossal has publicly targeted the woolly mammoth, Tasmanian tiger, and dodo—species that are iconic, scientifically tractable, and symbolically useful for public engagement. Jurassic Park versus real-world paleogenomics (Priority: 5/5): Lamm contrasts the fictional approach of filling DNA gaps from amber-preserved mosquitoes with Colossal’s method of reconstructing genomes through comparison with living relatives and then editing living cells. Genome engineering workflow and technical feasibility (Priority: 5/5): He details the process of selecting closest living relatives, comparing genomes, identifying functional differences, and using multiplex editing, gene knockouts, and synthesized DNA blocks to recreate lost traits. AI as an enabling tool in biology (Priority: 4/5): AI is presented as essential for comparative genomics and for choosing the best editing tool for each genetic change, shortening experimental feedback loops and reducing wasted lab time. Conservation and human-health implications (Priority: 4/5): Lamm argues that the technologies developed for de-extinction can help biodiversity preservation, ecosystem restoration, and potentially reveal insights relevant to disease resistance and human medicine.
Key Arguments: De-extinction is now technically plausible because CRISPR and related gene-editing tools matured in the last decade. Colossal is not trying to clone extinct animals from ancient DNA alone; it is editing living cells of the closest extant relative to recreate key traits. The work is framed as conservation-oriented and ecologically motivated, not as a theme park or dinosaur revival fantasy. AI materially improves biological R&D by helping choose the best editing tool and reducing the trial-and-error cost of experiments. The same platform used for de-extinction can generate value for species preservation and human health applications. Mammoth, thylacine, and dodo are especially compelling because they combine scientific tractability with public resonance. Elephants and related large mammals present interesting biology, including unusually low cancer rates, which may offer additional research value.
Data Points: Projected biodiversity loss without intervention: 15.1% - Original company pitch-deck estimate for loss by 2050, as described by Lamm Updated biodiversity loss estimate: 50% - Lamm says the estimate had been upped by 2024 Asian elephant genetic similarity to mammoth: 99.6% - Lamm says the Asian elephant is the closest living relative to the woolly mammoth Number of mammoth genomes Colossal has: About 65 - He says most are unpublished and come from Siberian/Russian and Alaskan samples Thylacine genome completeness: 99.9% complete - Lamm cites this as an exceptional ancient-DNA result Mammoth sample time span: About 700,000 years - He says samples across this span help fill in comparative gaps Cancer suppression protein expression in elephants: About 7x more than mice - Lamm says elephants overexpress p53 relative to mice CRISPR-era feasibility window: Approximately 2012-2015 onward - Lamm identifies this as the period when the work became viable AI tool recommendation accuracy: Over 90% - Internal model predicts the best editing tool for a given edit Thylacine extinction year: 1936 - Lamm notes the Tasmanian tiger went extinct due to human hunting Oldest DNA reliably collected: A little over 1 million years - He says DNA degrades too quickly for dinosaur-era reconstruction
Pivotal Quotes: "“reverse Jurassic Park”" — Ben Lamm: Lamm’s shorthand for Colossal’s strategy: editing living species using comparative genomics rather than filling in ancient DNA from amber-preserved samples "“If you had one project with unlimited capital that you could focus on for the rest of your life, what would it be, George?”" — Sam Harris: Harris prompting Lamm to explain how the Colossal idea emerged from his conversation with George Church "“We wanted a bird species. We wanted to recruit Beth Shapiro... so we did the dodo”" — Ben Lamm: Lamm explains the species-selection logic and the role of scientific leadership in the company’s roadmap
Implications: If Colossal succeeds, de-extinction tools could accelerate conservation, improve gene-editing platforms, and yield medical insights. Even partial success would normalize AI-driven synthetic biology and reshape what people think is possible in biotechnology.
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Join neuroscientist, philosopher, and five-time New York Times best-selling author Sam Harris as he explores important and controversial questions about the mind, society, current events, moral philosophy, religion, and rationality—with an overarching focus on how a growing understanding of ourselves and the world is changing our sense of how we should live. Sam is also the creator of the Waking Up app. Combining Sam’s decades of mindfulness practice, profound wisdom from varied philosophical...