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Alain Bertaud on Cities, Planning, and Order Without Design

Urbanist and author Alain Bertaud of NYU talks about his book Order Without Design with EconTalk host Russ Roberts. Bertaud explores the role of zoning and planning alongside the emergent factors that affect the growth of cities. He emphasizes the importance of cities as places for people to work an

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Library of Economics and Liberty HostAlain Bertaud Guest

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Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Alain Bertaud argues that cities work best when planners respect market signals, especially prices and mobility, rather than imposing rigid norms. He distinguishes necessary regulation for safety and externalities from harmful rules like minimum apartment sizes and exclusionary zoning, showing how these reduce affordability, block mobility, and distort urban labor markets.

Main Topics: Markets vs. Planning in Cities (Priority: 5/5): Bertaud contrasts planners’ norm-based thinking with economists’ price-based view, arguing planners often ignore scarcity, trade-offs, and local knowledge. Necessary vs. Harmful Regulation (Priority: 5/5): He defends regulations for safety, structure, fire, and externalities, but opposes rules that dictate consumption choices such as minimum floor space and unit sizes. Cities as Labor Markets (Priority: 5/5): The core function of a city is a dense, flexible labor market that lets workers and firms match efficiently; monuments and amenities are downstream of that productivity. Mobility, Land Prices, and Urban Form (Priority: 5/5): He explains how transport technology and land prices shape housing density, commuting, and urban expansion, emphasizing right-of-way planning and adaptable transport systems. Housing Affordability and Zoning (Priority: 5/5): Bertaud argues that affordability crises in cities like New York stem heavily from zoning, minimum-size rules, and other restrictions that prevent small, market-priced units. Urban Change and Adaptive Reuse (Priority: 4/5): He describes land recycling as a natural market process: as cities grow, rising land values should shift obsolete uses into higher-value housing or commercial uses. Reception and Future of Urban Planning (Priority: 3/5): He says his views are unusual in planning circles but increasingly supported by urban economists and potentially strengthened by new transport and information technologies.

Key Arguments: Urban planners focus on norms and presumed needs, while economists recognize scarcity and heterogeneous preferences; people make different housing trade-offs involving location, size, and price. Regulations protecting neighbors and safety are legitimate, but rules that set minimum apartment sizes or maximum unit counts arbitrarily restrict choice and raise rents. A city is fundamentally a large labor market; its productivity depends on mobility and the ability of workers and firms to match across a large area. Minimum housing standards can exclude low- and middle-income households from legal housing, pushing them into overcrowding or informality instead of improving welfare. Land prices and transport technology jointly determine urban density: as commuting becomes easier, households can choose larger homes farther out or smaller homes near jobs. Zoning that freezes land use prevents cities from recycling land into more valuable uses, even when demand has shifted dramatically. Housing affordability should be achieved at market prices through supply and transport, not through long waiting lists, lotteries, or below-market subsidies as the main solution. Some restrictions, such as historic preservation, may be valuable, but they should not prevent enough housing supply for workers like teachers who need access to city jobs. The efficiency of very large metropolitan labor markets could generate major productivity gains if transport systems evolve, including subways, tunneling, self-driving cars, and minibuses.

Data Points: Town population: 80,000 - Tlemcen, Algeria, where Bertaud worked on building permits as a young man Tenure in Algeria: About 6 months - He spent roughly half a year approving permits after his initial experience Household size in New York (past): About 4.5 people per household - Referenced as the size level decades earlier in New York Household size in New York (present): About 1.2 people per household - Used to illustrate why minimum apartment-size rules are increasingly mismatched to demand Minimum apartment example: 30 square meters / 60 square meters - Used to contrast market choice with regulatory minimums Paris small-apartment example: 8 square meters (86 square feet) - Example of a compact apartment layout that would be illegal in New York Old-law tenement example: 27 square meters - Bertaud’s first New York apartment for a family of three Typical immigrant stay in 1850s tenements: 6 to 8 months - Museum docent’s description used to show historic residential mobility Change in New York density: About double 80 years ago - Bertaud says New York’s density was nearly twice current levels Urban land-use share in Wall Street area: About half residential condominiums - Illustrates adaptive rezoning and changing demand

Pivotal Quotes: "Order generated without design can far outstrip plans men consciously contrive." — Alain Bertaud: Quoting Hayek to summarize the book’s core argument about emergent urban order "The main job of the urban planner is really affordability and mobility." — Alain Bertaud: His stated priority for planning policy over broader abstract goals "If a school teacher who has a job who is absolutely indispensable for the working of the city cannot afford to live within half an hour commuting time... there is something wrong with our system." — Alain Bertaud: On the social cost of restrictive housing regulation in major cities

Implications: Cities should loosen exclusionary rules, legalize smaller and more varied housing, and plan transport and rights-of-way for growth. Doing so would improve affordability, mobility, and labor-market access for ordinary workers and future urban productivity.

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EconTalk: Conversations for the Curious is an award-winning weekly podcast hosted by Russ Roberts of Shalem College in Jerusalem and Stanford's Hoover Institution. The eclectic guest list includes authors, doctors, psychologists, historians, philosophers, economists, and more. Learn how the health care system really works, the serenity that comes from humility, the challenge of interpreting data, how potato chips are made, what it's like to run an upscale Manhattan restaurant, what caused the...

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