Best Of: Margaret Atwood on the Bible and the Future

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Ezra Klein interviews Margaret Atwood about why humans think in stories, how stories can both teach and manipulate, and why her fiction feels prescient. They connect The Handmaid’s Tale to totalitarian tactics, Cold War Berlin, the religious right, consumerism, climate crisis, and shifting national myths, while also exploring what makes societies drift toward authoritarianism and whether a more hopeful future vision is possible.

Main Topics: Why humans think in stories (Priority: 5/5): Atwood argues storytelling emerged to transmit practical knowledge, warn about danger, and organize time into past/present/future. Stories persist because they teach, persuade, and make abstract actors memorable. Stories as tools of manipulation and propaganda (Priority: 5/5): She emphasizes that stories can be weaponized to exploit people’s better nature, not just greed. Political and wartime propaganda often works by making harmful goals seem virtuous or necessary. National myths, identity, and political conflict (Priority: 5/5): Atwood discusses how countries rely on shared narratives to hold together, comparing shifting American and Canadian myths. She frames current U.S. polarization as an arm-wrestle over the ‘real America.’ The Handmaid’s Tale, totalitarianism, and East Germany (Priority: 5/5): Atwood explains how Cold War Berlin and neighboring communist states shaped The Handmaid’s Tale, especially its attention to surveillance, self-censorship, and communication under repression. Climate crisis, scarcity, and authoritarianism (Priority: 4/5): She links environmental degradation to conflict, territoriality, and harsher politics, arguing that scarcity reduces tolerance and can accelerate authoritarian responses. Consumerism, energy systems, and insatiability (Priority: 4/5): Atwood traces modern throwaway culture to the shift from coal to oil and cheap mass production, arguing that today’s insatiability is culturally and materially produced, not just human nature. Utopias, dystopias, and the need for a hopeful future (Priority: 4/5): Atwood says utopias largely collapsed as a genre after real-world totalitarian experiments, but she still wants practical, livable alternatives that make life better and more fun rather than merely preventing disaster.

Key Arguments: Humans are story-making creatures because narrative helped early people store and pass on survival knowledge, and that same capacity also enabled deception and propaganda. Believable manipulation often appeals to a person’s desire to be good and helpful, making harmful schemes more persuasive than naked self-interest. National myths are not fixed; when old stories lose force, societies fragment unless a new unifying narrative emerges. The Handmaid’s Tale drew directly from Atwood’s experiences in and around Iron Curtain Europe and from observing how totalitarian systems begin with normalization, not overt declarations. Authoritarian regimes often root themselves in existing cultural or religious stories, which makes opposition feel like heresy rather than politics. Climate change will not only cause direct damage; it will intensify violence, displacement, and scarcity-driven conflict. Modern consumer insatiability is tied to the postwar oil economy and cheap disposable goods, not simply timeless human desire. A better politics needs to offer improvement and pleasure, not just moral seriousness or catastrophe prevention.

Data Points: Number of novels by Margaret Atwood: at least 17 - Ezra Klein introduces Atwood’s body of work Poetry collections: 20 - Atwood’s published output mentioned in the introduction Short fiction collections: 8 - Atwood’s published output mentioned in the introduction The Handmaid’s Tale publication year: 1985 - Referenced in the introduction and discussion of the novel’s ongoing relevance Episode recording timing: mid-February - Recorded before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, noted in the introduction Year Atwood began notes on The Handmaid’s Tale: 1981 - Atwood says she started making notes before actually writing the novel Year Atwood was in West Berlin when shaping the novel: 1984 - She describes the environment influencing the book Year the Berlin Wall came down: 1989 - Used as reference point in the discussion of East/West Berlin and Prague Age group of schoolchildren not shown a Bible story: eight-year-olds - Atwood jokes about the concubine cut into 12 pieces not being presented to young children Number of children in the sacrificial example: 17 - Atwood uses a satirical example of how good people can be manipulated

Pivotal Quotes: "We lived as usual by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance. You have to work at it." — Margaret Atwood: Discussing how people avoid confronting climate crisis and other overwhelming realities "What you're seeing now is an arm wrestle for the soul of America." — Margaret Atwood: Describing competing national myths and political identity in the United States "The talent for insatiability kicks off around 1950, the most recent wave of it." — Margaret Atwood: Explaining how consumer culture and cheap energy shaped modern appetite for more

Implications: The conversation suggests that today’s politics, climate crisis, and culture wars are driven by competing narratives. For listeners, the warning is clear: pay attention to the stories institutions tell, because they shape behavior, legitimacy, and the future.