Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Dan Harris interviews Lama Rod Owens about "The New Saints," a contemporary reworking of the Buddhist bodhisattva ideal. Owens argues that sainthood should be messy, truthful, and self-aware rather than perfectionistic, centering harm reduction, responsiveness, joy, prayer, ancestry, and relationship to unseen beings. The conversation blends practical mindfulness with spiritual ecology, activism, and collective liberation.
Main Topics: Reclaiming sainthood as a modern, human path: Owens defines a "new saint" as someone who reduces suffering, tells the truth, and balances their own needs with others', rejecting perfection and self-erasure. Relanguaging Buddhist ideas for contemporary audiences: He frames the book as an accessible retelling of the bodhisattva tradition in language that speaks directly to modern people, especially those from his own cultural intersections. Goodness, boundaries, and harm reduction: Owens distinguishes performing goodness from actively practicing goodness through boundaries, self-care, and choices that reduce violence rather than seek approval. Unseen beings, prayer, and spiritual ecology: He speaks candidly about ancestors, deities, spirits, and other unseen forces as real parts of his practice and a source of agency, guidance, and decolonization. Awakened care and responsiveness as core practices: Two central tools of new sainthood are 'awakened care' (compassion, love, joy within emptiness) and responsiveness (noticing, naming, and choosing response over reaction). Joy, gratitude, and ancestral survival: Owens argues that joy is not optional but necessary for sustaining liberation work, especially in the wake of historical trauma and inherited survival. Collective liberation and the limits of individual salvation: The conversation emphasizes that no one person can save everyone; the goal is to inspire others into collective care and liberation.
Key Arguments: Sainthood should be understood as a workable, contemporary practice of reducing harm and benefiting others without denying one’s own needs. Perfection is unrealistic and often violent; spiritual maturity comes from acknowledging humanness, flaws, and ongoing practice. "Goodness" is not a fixed identity but a repeated choice in each moment to reduce suffering and avoid escalating harm. Truth-telling matters more than polished spirituality; honesty about desire, identity, and limits builds trust and liberation. Owens believes unseen beings, ancestors, and spiritual forces are part of reality and that engaging them expands agency and support. Awakened care combines compassion, love, joy, and emptiness, while responsiveness trains people to pause and choose how to act. Joy and gratitude are survival technologies that help people carry the weight of historical and present-day oppression. Liberation is collective: the goal is not to save everyone, but to inspire a chain reaction of ethical, caring action.
Data Points: Number of podcast appearances by Lama Rod Owens: 5th appearance - Dan Harris notes this is Owens’ fifth time on the show. Time in retreat: a little over 3 years - Owens says he became a Lama after spending over three years in silent, cloistered retreat. Age of Buddhism: 2,600 years - Harris references Buddhism’s long history as part of the explanation for adapting it to new cultures. Historical reach of Buddha quote: 2,500+ years later - Harris notes that the Buddha’s teachings remain influential over 2,500 years later. Book title: The New Saints: From Broken Hearts to Spiritual Warriors - Owens’ new book discussed throughout the episode. Specific identity labels used by Owens: black Buddhist southern queen - Harris introduces Owens using Owens’ own self-description. Historical example of liberation: ~70 people rescued - Owens cites Harriet Tubman as having rescued roughly 70 people and changed those lives.
Pivotal Quotes: ""I’m no longer interested in being a good person."" — Lama Rod Owens: Owens explains that goodness should be an active, moment-to-moment practice of reducing harm, not a fixed identity. ""There can be no gaps, no valleys between us."" — Lama Rod Owens: He describes the book’s tone and his insistence on honesty, relatability, and refusing spiritual distance or perfection. ""What I am naming and seeing... I want to offer space to the thing so I can transform my relationship to it."" — Lama Rod Owens: Owens explains meditation as developing spaciousness rather than suppressing thoughts, emotions, or impulses.
Implications: The episode offers a practical, inclusive spirituality rooted in harm reduction, emotional honesty, and collective care. For listeners, it reframes liberation as everyday practice, not perfection, and encourages engagement with both inner work and social justice.