Can businesses help repair society? (with Ben & Jerry)

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield argue that business already shapes society and should be held to higher pro-social standards, not merely legality. They discuss corporate power, consumer pressure, B Corps, and the need for stronger regulation. The second half centers on their campaign to end qualified immunity, framing it as a civil-rights accountability issue and a test of whether businesses can help drive justice.

Main Topics: Business as a force shaping society: The hosts and guests agree that business already exerts outsized influence over elections, legislation, and media, so it cannot be treated as neutral or separate from social outcomes. Ethical business beyond legality: They criticize the idea that a company is ethical simply because it avoids criminal conduct, arguing that true ethics should include responsibility to workers, communities, and democracy. Consumers, B Corps, and market pressure: Jerry points to benefit corporations and Ben & Jerry's own market success as evidence that consumer demand can reward socially responsible business behavior. Government, regulation, and corporate accountability: The conversation emphasizes that good corporate behavior cannot rely on voluntary virtue alone; government should set standards, renew charters, and enforce public-interest obligations. Activism and the campaign to end qualified immunity: Ben and Jerry explain their effort to eliminate qualified immunity, describing it as a legal shield that prevents victims—especially Black and brown Americans—from suing abusive police officers. Purpose, culture, and legacy in business: The hosts highlight how founders can instill durable values in a company, with Ben & Jerry's cited as an example of a brand whose social commitments survived beyond the founders' control.

Key Arguments: Business already controls major social systems, including elections, legislation, and media, so it should be accountable for public outcomes. A society that leaves corporate behavior to narrow self-interest will reproduce inequality and injustice; pro-social conduct should be required, not optional. Consumers can influence corporate behavior by rewarding companies that speak out on racial justice, voting rights, and community well-being. The original idea of corporate charters implied a public-interest obligation, including the possibility of renewal or revocation if a company failed that duty. Qualified immunity creates a near-impenetrable barrier to civil accountability for police misconduct and disproportionately harms Black and brown people. Ending qualified immunity can be done through legislation at both federal and state levels; the obstacle is political will, especially from police unions. Ben & Jerry's history shows that taking social positions can coexist with strong business performance and even strengthen a brand. Ethical business should mean more than merely avoiding criminal indictment; it should actively contribute to justice and democracy.

Data Points: Campaign timing: Soon after George Floyd’s murder - Ben says the campaign to end qualified immunity began shortly after George Floyd was killed. Public launch timing: A few months ago - Ben says the campaign went public only recently. Corporate accountability duration: 45 years to 50 years - Nick references the neoliberal era during which business has had greater control than government. State-level reform examples: 3 jurisdictions - Colorado, New York City, and New Mexico are cited as places moving to end qualified immunity. Military budget stand example: 1% - The Peace Pop promotion called for redirecting 1% of the military budget. Ben & Jerry's founder identity: 2 co-founders - Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield identify themselves as co-founders and co-chairs of the campaign.

Pivotal Quotes: "When people talk about businesses being ethical, what they mean by that is that they're not breaking the law. They have not yet been criminally indicted." — Nick Hanauer: Opening critique of minimalist corporate ethics "Business is currently controlling the shape of our society." — Ben Cohen: Discussion of corporate influence over politics and public life "Qualified immunity is essentially a get out of jail free card for bad cops." — Ben Cohen: Explanation of the legal doctrine and why the campaign exists

Implications: The episode argues that democracy and markets need stronger public rules, not just good intentions. For companies, social responsibility can be strategic, but lasting change requires legal accountability and consumer pressure, especially on policing and civil rights.