Can corporations help repair society? (with Ben & Jerry)

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: This episode features Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield discussing how businesses can shape society for good, why corporations should be held to higher ethical standards, and how consumers and government can push companies toward pro-social behavior. The conversation centers on Ben & Jerry's legacy of activism, the limits of voluntary corporate responsibility, and their current campaign to end qualified immunity for police misconduct.

Main Topics: Business as a force for social change: Ben and Jerry argue that business already shapes elections, legislation, and media, so it should be used to advance the public good rather than narrow self-interest. Corporate responsibility vs. shareholder primacy: The hosts and guests debate whether companies should be left to act voluntarily or required by law to operate in socially beneficial ways. Ben & Jerry’s activism legacy: The interview revisits early examples like the Peace Pop, showing how the company used products and branding to take political stands without destroying the business. Consumer power and socially conscious brands: The guests emphasize that consumers can pressure companies to raise ethical standards and reward businesses that take stands on justice issues. Qualified immunity campaign: Ben and Jerry explain their current work to end qualified immunity, describing it as a major obstacle to accountability for police misconduct, especially against Black and brown communities. Role of government and regulation: The discussion argues for stronger public standards, including reviving corporate charter accountability and legislative reform to ensure businesses contribute to society.

Key Arguments: Business already exerts outsized influence over democracy through lobbying, campaign contributions, and media ownership, so the question is not whether it shapes society but whose interests it serves. Voluntary corporate ethics are insufficient; companies should be required, through government and law, to protect the long-term health of society and democracy. Smaller entrepreneurial companies have historically led many social-purpose business efforts, but broader corporate activism has increased after George Floyd’s murder and state voting restrictions. Ben & Jerry's history suggests that social activism can coexist with commercial success; taking public stands did not necessarily trigger the boycotts critics feared. Consumer pressure matters: when buyers expect businesses to serve more than profit, companies respond and may adopt more pro-social stances. Qualified immunity functions as a barrier to justice by making civil lawsuits against police nearly impossible, and ending it would restore accountability without being anti-police. Corporate charters originally implied public responsibility and could be reimagined as tools to enforce behavior aligned with community interests. The speakers believe good government is necessary because market competition alone rewards firms that cut wages, externalize harms, and prioritize self-interest over the common good.

Data Points: Time since company sale: Over four decades later - Intro notes Ben and Jerry are still active in activism more than 40 years after founding the company. Campaign focus: End qualified immunity - Both guests list this as their current role and political priority. Post-George Floyd shift: Since the murder of George Floyd - Jerry says business leaders have spoken out more than ever since this event. Voting legislation reference: H.R. 1 - Nick references the voting-rights/election-reform bill as a major example of policy where business influence could matter. Historical charter concept: 1800s-style renewal/revocation model - Jerry says corporate charters were originally tied to community benefit and could be revisited that way. Peace Pop era: Late 1980s - Ben describes the company’s first major political stand during the Cold War military buildup. Qualified immunity examples: Colorado, New York City, New Mexico - Jerry cites jurisdictions that have already ended or are ending qualified immunity. Coalition breadth: Liberals, libertarians, lawyers, former police, athletes, business people - Jerry describes the coalition behind the campaign to end qualified immunity. Book title: Above the Law - Ben mentions his book featuring 16 stories about police abuse and failed civil cases. Stories in book: 16 - Ben says the book includes 16 individual stories related to police abuse and qualified immunity. Product development detail: 50 pounds - Ben jokes he weighed 50 pounds more due to extensive ice-cream quality control.

Pivotal Quotes: "Business is the most powerful force in the society, and that if there's going to be any change that happens in society, business has a role to play." — Ben Cohen: Explaining why corporate influence should be directed toward the public good. "When people talk about businesses being ethical, what they mean by that is that they're not breaking the law. That is, seriously, that's the threshold of an ethical business." — Jerry Greenfield: Critiquing the low bar for corporate ethics in America. "You can ignore it, you can complain about it, or you can do something about it." — Ben Cohen: Explaining his motivation for activism and the decision to work on injustice.

Implications: The episode argues that businesses should be held to stronger public standards, not merely trusted to self-regulate. For listeners, it frames consumer activism and government action as essential tools for making corporations accountable and democracy more just.