Neither Confirm Nor Deny

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: Radiolab traces the origin and enduring power of the CIA’s “Glomar response”—the phrase “we can neither confirm nor deny”—through the failed 1970s recovery of a sunken Soviet submarine and a modern FOIA request for phone metadata. The episode shows how secrecy, truth, law, and public accountability collide, and why a non-answer can be as consequential as a lie.

Main Topics: The modern FOIA trigger: Jeff Larson’s metadata request (Priority: 5/5): ProPublica’s Jeff Larson requests his own NSA call metadata after the 2013 NSA surveillance revelations and receives a Glomar-style non-answer, prompting the investigation into the phrase’s origins. Project Azorian and the K-129 recovery mission (Priority: 5/5): The CIA’s covert effort to recover a Soviet submarine from the ocean floor becomes the historical source of the Glomar response and the central Cold War secrecy story. The engineering absurdity of the “Glomar Explorer” (Priority: 4/5): The mission relied on an enormous claw, a specially built ship, and Howard Hughes as cover, illustrating the lengths taken to maintain secrecy. FOIA, Watergate, and the legal logic of non-denial (Priority: 5/5): In the post-Watergate climate, the CIA needed a response that avoided both confirming secrets and lying, leading lawyer Walt Logan to formulate the Glomar response. The spread of Glomar across government and media (Priority: 4/5): What began as a niche CIA tactic becomes boilerplate used by many agencies and even enters pop culture, while journalists and activists learn to exploit its weaknesses. The human cost of secrecy (Priority: 5/5): The episode closes by contrasting strategic ambiguity with the pain it causes, especially for families of the K-129 crew who received cruel, evasive death documentation.

Key Arguments: A Glomar response is designed to avoid both confirming sensitive information and lying, preserving secrecy while remaining technically truthful. The CIA needed the response because admitting either the existence or nonexistence of records could reveal operational details to adversaries. Post-Watergate FOIA rules forced agencies into more careful legal language, giving the Glomar response its lasting relevance. Secrecy can protect national security, but overuse or misuse can obstruct accountability and delay public understanding until the issue is no longer salient. Even when governments do not disclose facts, their evasions can itself reveal the outlines of secret programs. What is technically a non-answer can still be deeply harmful, especially when it affects families seeking clarity about loss and death.

Data Points: Depth of submarine recovery operation: 3 miles below the surface - The Soviet submarine K-129 was located at extreme ocean depth, making recovery exceptionally difficult. Pressure at depth: 7,500 pounds per square inch - Describes the ocean pressure on the submerged submarine. Estimated lift weight: 14 million pounds - Approximate weight the CIA would have needed to raise to recover the whole submarine. Time to receive NSA response: 10 or 12 days - Jeff Larson got a reply from the NSA quickly after submitting his metadata request. Project Azorian launch year: 1969 - David Sharp says he started the CIA program in 1969. Claw design: 8-fingered claw - The CIA’s proposed recovery mechanism for lifting the submarine. Year of submarine recovery attempt: 1974 - The Glomar Explorer mission attempted the lift in July 1974. Quantified court delay: 2 years - An ACLU lawyer says a Glomar response typically means two years of litigation before substantive arguments begin.

Pivotal Quotes: "We can neither confirm nor deny the existence of the information requested." — Walt Logan / CIA: The core Glomar response developed to answer FOIA requests without revealing secrets. "It’s a tiny crack through which people can sort of puncture the wall and get information about the larger program." — Narrator summarizing the legal critique: Explains why even acknowledging records can reveal intelligence program contours. "Cause of death. Presumed dead." — Irina Zhuravina: The widow of a K-129 officer describing the cruel ambiguity of Soviet death certificates.

Implications: Glomar remains a powerful tool for secrecy, but it also shows how evasive language can obscure government action, delay oversight, and deepen harm. For listeners, it’s a warning that non-answers can shape public knowledge as much as facts do.