Resurrecting dire wolves is just the beginning for Colossal Biosciences’ Ben Lamm

Episode Summary

Executive Summary: The episode centers on Colossal Biosciences CEO Ben Lamm and the company's controversial but attention-grabbing effort to “functionally de-extinct” species like the dire wolf, woolly mammoth, and dodo using ancient DNA, gene editing, and cloning-adjacent techniques. Lamm argues the work is both scientifically groundbreaking and ethically justified as a conservation tool, while also opening commercial and human-health-adjacent spinouts.

Main Topics: Dire wolf “resurrection” and functional de-extinction (Priority: 5/5): Lamm explains how Colossal created dire-wolf-like pups by editing gray wolf cells using ancient DNA from a 13,000-year-old tooth and 72,000-year-old skull, then using somatic cell nuclear transfer into domestic dogs. He frames it as functional de-extinction rather than pure cloning. Scientific controversy over species identity (Priority: 5/5): The interview tackles criticism that the animals are genetically engineered gray wolves rather than true dire wolves. Lamm says the dispute is mostly semantic and argues the achievement is still a major leap in genetics. Conservation as the core mission (Priority: 5/5): Lamm repeatedly says Colossal’s work is meant to support biodiversity preservation, endangered species rescue, and eventual rewilding, not just headline-making de-extinction. He says conservation tools developed in the process are shared freely with partners. Business model, valuation, and spinouts (Priority: 4/5): Despite having no revenue, Colossal is valued around $10 billion and has spun out software/materials-related ventures like Form Bio and Breaking. Lamm describes the company as both a science platform and a source of commercially useful technologies. Ethics, regulation, and “playing God” (Priority: 5/5): The episode explores objections that the work is unnatural or dangerous. Lamm responds that humanity already alters nature constantly and argues there is a moral duty to act given accelerating biodiversity loss; he also says Colossal has drawn its own ethical boundaries. Future applications: endangered species, IVF, and ex utero development (Priority: 4/5): Beyond extinct species, Colossal is working on blood-based cloning, elephant disease research, rhino conservation, and artificial womb technology. Lamm suggests some technologies may have implications for human IVF, though the company says it will not work on humans or primates.

Key Arguments: Colossal’s work is not literal cloning of extinct species; it is ‘functional de-extinction’ built by comparing ancient genomes to the closest living relatives and engineering the key traits back in. The dire wolves are scientifically significant because no one has previously edited 15 genes from ancient genomes lost for 12,000 years to produce living animals. The controversy over whether the animals are “true” dire wolves is, in Lamm’s view, largely semantic; the more important point is the unprecedented science. De-extinction is positioned as a conservation strategy, not a replacement for it, and Colossal says it shares applicable technologies free with conservation partners. Lamm argues humanity has a moral obligation to intervene because biodiversity loss is severe and accelerating, citing a projected loss of up to 50% by 2050. The company’s research platform is already generating commercial value through spinouts, suggesting a business model based on enabling technologies rather than direct sales of de-extinct animals. Colossal is deliberately limiting its scope: no non-human primates, no Neanderthals, and no human work, despite acknowledging possible downstream relevance to human IVF and developmental biology.

Data Points: Age of ancient dire wolf DNA sources: 13,000-year-old tooth; 72,000-year-old skull - Used as the basis for ancient genome reconstruction in the dire wolf project. Genetic similarity between gray wolves and dire wolves: 99.5% - Lamm says gray wolves are already extremely close to dire wolves, making targeted edits feasible. Dire wolf edit count: 15 genes - Lamm says Colossal edited 15 genes using ancient genome data. Time to first pups after embryo transfer: 60 days later - After somatic cell nuclear transfer into a domestic dog, the embryos resulted in dire wolf puppies after gestation. Biodiversity loss projection: Up to 50% by 2050 - Used by Lamm to justify the company’s conservation mission. Company valuation: $10 billion - Bob Safian notes Colossal’s rapid rise in valuation over a few years. Funding for Colossal Foundation: $50 million - Raised separately from the business to fund conservation-related academic work. Number of spinout companies: 3 - Lamm says Colossal has spun out three companies, including Form Bio and Breaking. Form Bio valuation: Over $100 million - One Colossal spinout focused on computational biology and drug-discovery manufacturability. Breaking valuation: Over $100 million - A spinout focused on breaking plastic chemical bonds and producing biomass. Dire wolf preserve size: 2,000-acre secure ecological preserve - Where the dire wolves are housed and monitored. Contained intensive zone: About 6.5 acres - A smaller area within the preserve includes an animal hospital and storm shelter. Number of planned additional dire wolves: 3 to 5 more - Lamm says more animals may be created to establish proper pack dynamics. Mammoth gestation period: 22 months - Explained as one reason the mammoth project is still in editing stages. Mammoth gene-edit target: About 85 genes - Lamm says roughly 25 have been edited so far. Red wolf population: 15 left in the wild from 12 founder lines - Presented as a more urgent conservation case than the dire wolf. EEHV cause of elephant deaths: Vast majority of elephant deaths - Lamm says most elephant deaths are due to Elephant Endotheliotropic Herpesvirus, not poaching. Northern white rhinos: 2 females left - Used to illustrate functional extinction and the need for assisted reproduction. Ex utero development team size: 17-person team - Working on artificial womb technology ('exodev').

Pivotal Quotes: "We took a 13,000-year-old tooth and a 72,000-year-old skull, and then through a process called somatic cell nuclear transfer, aka cloning, you get an embryo, you put it into a domestic dog. 60 days later, we had our first dire wolf puppets." — Ben Lamm: Explaining the technical process behind Colossal’s dire wolf project. "I think that, you know, given that we're going to lose up to 50% of biodiversity between now and 2050, we have a moral obligation to do something." — Ben Lamm: His ethical defense of de-extinction and conservation intervention. "That is the moon landing of genetics." — Ben Lamm: Describing the scientific significance of editing ancient DNA into living animals.

Implications: The episode suggests synthetic biology is entering a phase where conservation, commercialization, and bioethics collide. For listeners, it signals both major promise—new tools for endangered species and medicine—and major unresolved questions about identity, regulation, and how far genetic engineering should go.