Episode Summary
Executive Summary: Dan Harris interviews George Saunders about writing, Buddhism, kindness, and self-diminishment. Saunders argues that writing and meditation both quiet rumination, sharpen attention, and reduce ego, helping cultivate kindness and a more accurate view of self and others. They also discuss his new book, Lincoln in the Bardo, the ethics of public life, and how to respond thoughtfully to political division.
Main Topics: Writing as a meditative, happiness-producing practice: Saunders explains that writing becomes pleasurable when he accepts frustration as part of the process and uses rigorous revision to quiet rumination and enter a focused, present state similar to meditation. Buddhism, selflessness, and the trainability of mind: The conversation centers on Saunders’ Buddhist practice, especially the idea that the mind is variable and trainable, and that self-centered thoughts are constructions rather than fixed realities. Kindness versus niceness: Saunders distinguishes true kindness as an awareness-based impulse to benefit others from superficial niceness or agreeability, emphasizing discernment, attention, and sometimes firm action. Self-diminishment and the reduction of ego: Saunders argues that aging, practice, and honest work can reduce self-importance, allowing love, awareness, and better judgment to emerge rather than self-aggrandizement. Lincoln in the Bardo and metaphysical reflection: He discusses the genesis of Lincoln in the Bardo, its depiction of grief and transition, and how Buddhist concepts of impermanence and rebirth shaped the novel’s metaphysics. Reading, teaching, and craft in A Swim in a Pond in the Rain: Saunders describes his teaching of Russian stories and how close reading helps students and readers understand craft, attention, and the human mind. Political division, Trumpism, and American identity: Saunders reflects on the Trump era, saying he wants to understand supporters without normalizing harm, and frames the moment as a crossroads between egalitarian ideals and racial nostalgia.
Key Arguments: Writing can induce a quieter, more attentive mental state, reducing rumination in a way that resembles meditation. Self-loathing during writing is often just a phase; with experience, the writer learns not to believe every negative feeling as permanent or true. Fiction writing is an exercise in specificity: forcing characters into clarity can increase empathy and reduce snap judgments about real people. Meditation is more powerful than writing for changing the mind, but writing can still be incorporated into a broader spiritual practice. Kindness is not mere niceness; it requires awareness of what would actually benefit another person in the specific situation. Self-diminishment means turning down self-centered thinking, not humiliating oneself; this makes room for love and helpfulness. The mind is trainable, and people who practice sincerely can become measurably kinder, calmer, and more flexible. Public praise and artistic ambition are real motivators and should be skillfully used rather than denied, while avoiding ego inflation. Lincoln in the Bardo grew out of Saunders’ interest in grief, impermanence, and the possibility that unresolved attachment shapes our transitional states. To understand political opponents, Saunders prefers patient listening and data collection over immediate theorizing or punditry.
Data Points: Books by George Saunders: 10 other books - Dan Harris introduces Saunders as the author of ten other books in addition to Lincoln in the Bardo. Man Booker Prize: 2017 - Lincoln in the Bardo won the 2017 Man Booker Prize for best work of fiction in English. Teaching tenure: 20 years - Saunders says he has taught the Syracuse forms class for 20 years. Applications for the class: 600–700 per year - He describes the competitive selection process for his class. Students selected: 6 students - He says the class picks six students to study each year. Class size: 20 people - He describes the seminar as roughly 20 people in a room. Writing time: 4–6 hours a day - Saunders says he tries to write pretty much as long as he can every day. Extreme writing stretch: 12–15 hours a day - He says he went into a zone writing Lincoln in the Bardo at this intensity, which he notes is not sustainable. Commencement talk audience context: Big sports stadium - He says the kindness speech was delivered in a stadium setting to an audience likely preferring to be elsewhere. Age mentioned: 62 - Saunders references being 62 multiple times when discussing aging, ego, and changing priorities. Child’s age in Lincoln story: 9, 10, or 11 - He recalls Willie Lincoln as a young child, giving an approximate age in the historical story.
Pivotal Quotes: "“The mind is not fixed, and there are these ways to change your mind.”" — George Saunders: Saunders explains what Buddhist practice has taught him most deeply about mental variability and training. "“Self-diminishment is really related to monkey mind.”" — George Saunders: He defines self-diminishment as reducing self-centered mental chatter, not self-hatred. "“Kindness is awareness.”" — Dan Harris: Harris reflects back Saunders’ distinction between niceness and kindness, summarizing the idea that real kindness requires attention to what is needed.
Implications: The episode suggests that writing, meditation, and ethical living are linked by attention and ego reduction. For listeners, the takeaway is to treat mind-training as practical, not abstract, and to approach creativity, politics, and relationships with more curiosity and less self-importance.