Episode Summary
Executive Summary: The episode examines whether the traditional 60/40 stock-bond portfolio can still deliver strong long-term returns after a 35+ year tailwind from falling rates and rising asset prices. The hosts argue expected returns are likely lower going forward, then survey alternatives ranging from small tilts toward value/international assets to uncorrelated assets, active momentum-based strategies, and leveraged “return stacking,” while emphasizing behavior and consistency matter most.
Main Topics: Why 60/40 Returns May Be Lower Going Forward (Priority: 5/5): The hosts explain that bonds are likely to earn less because starting yields are low, while stocks may face lower future returns if current elevated valuations mean-revert. The Historical Success of 60/40 (Priority: 4/5): They note the portfolio has delivered strong long-term performance, benefiting from high bond yields in the 1980s and a favorable multi-decade market regime. Staying with 60/40 vs. Seeking Alternatives (Priority: 4/5): The discussion highlights that the simplest alternative may be to keep the 60/40 because it is cheap, familiar, and behaviorally easier to maintain than more complex allocations. Tilting Toward Relative Value (Priority: 4/5): Potential portfolio enhancements include favoring cheaper segments such as value stocks, international equities, emerging markets, or selected bond sectors. Adding Uncorrelated Assets and Rebalancing (Priority: 3/5): Gold, commodities, and real assets may help in inflationary environments and can improve portfolio outcomes through rebalancing even if their standalone returns are lower. Systematic Defensive/Trend Strategies (Priority: 4/5): Protective Asset Allocation and Generalized Protective Momentum are presented as more active, quantitative approaches that seek comparable returns with better drawdown protection by rotating across asset classes and using cash when momentum weakens. Return Stacking and Leverage-Based Portfolio Design (Priority: 3/5): The hosts discuss leveraged ETF structures like NTSX that free up capital for additional diversifying assets, potentially boosting returns without proportionally increasing risk, but with added complexity and leverage risk.
Key Arguments: Bond expected returns are best estimated from starting yields, and current yields are far below the levels that powered bond returns since the 1980s. Stock returns are likely to be muted if valuations mean-revert from above-average levels. The 60/40 portfolio may still be the best option because it is simple, inexpensive, historically effective, and less prone to behavioral mistakes. Many investors have responded to lower expected returns by moving up the risk curve, but that approach is not sustainable forever because risk is double-sided. Small tilts toward cheaper asset classes such as value stocks, emerging markets, or non-U.S. equities may improve expected returns, but only if investors can endure long periods of underperformance. Uncorrelated assets like gold and commodities can help in inflationary regimes and may improve overall portfolio returns through disciplined rebalancing. More systematic strategies that rotate into momentum-leading assets and raise cash during weak regimes may offer similar long-term returns with better downside protection, though they are more complex and tax-inefficient in taxable accounts. Return stacking can use leverage to preserve a core stock/bond exposure while allocating freed-up capital to diversifiers, potentially improving risk-adjusted returns. The most important factor for investors is choosing a strategy they can stick with through different market environments rather than chasing the highest expected return.
Data Points: 60/40 annualized return over last 30-35 years: 9.2% per year - Cited as the average return of the traditional 60/40 portfolio since the mid-1980s. Bond yields in early 1980s: 14-16% peak - Used to explain why bond returns were so strong over the past multi-decade period. Expected equity return range from major firms: Morningstar: slightly less than 0%; Vanguard: 3.7%-5.7% - Illustrates how current valuations have lowered long-term return expectations for U.S. stocks. WisdomTree NTSX leverage target: 150% of 60/40 return exposure - Example of a leveraged 60/40 fund used in the return-stacking discussion. Capital allocation in NTSX example: 67% invested to capture 100% of 60/40 exposure; 33% freed up - Explains how leverage can free capital for additional investments. Return horizon discussed: 7-10 years - Used when discussing lower forward-return expectations for 60/40 and equities. Historical bond market example: Starting yields in the teens vs. roughly 2% today - Supports the argument that future bond returns should be materially lower than past returns.
Pivotal Quotes: "the 60-40s had these great returns in the past 40 years, but you can expect much lower returns in the future" — Justin Carboneau: Introduces the episode’s core premise: the traditional portfolio may face a weaker return environment ahead. "the best alternative to the 60-40 portfolio may be the 60-40 portfolio" — Jack Forehand: Summarizes the case for sticking with the traditional allocation due to simplicity and behavioral advantages. "finding a strategy you can stick with for the long term" — Justin Carboneau: Closing takeaway emphasizing discipline over trying to optimize with complex alternatives.
Implications: Listeners should expect lower future returns from traditional balanced portfolios and may need to save more, spend less, or thoughtfully add diversifiers. More advanced alternatives may improve outcomes, but only if investors can tolerate complexity, leverage, and behaviorally difficult stretches.
About Excess Returns
Excess Returns is dedicated to making you a better long-term investor and making complex investing topics understandable. Join Jack Forehand, Justin Carbonneau and Matt Zeigler as they sit down with some of the most interesting names in finance to discuss topics like macroeconomics, value investing, factor investing, and more.